Should Rumsfield Keep His Job?

[lightwav]

So how about it? Should he keep his job? If not why? If so why? I would love to hear what EP Onliners think about this issue.

[Rapunzel]

Rumsfeld should be fired and count his blessings that he won't be tarred and feathered. I am sick of watching Bush and his team pass the buck and blame the people under them for everything they do wrong.

While we’re at it, let’s fire Bush.

[lightwav]

Ok so what about the fact that EVERY work environment and EVERY grou of people do whacky things?

I mean isn't this just an instance where a few idiots made some wrong choices and made our country look bad? How is this Rumsfeld or Bush's fault?

I mean if you owned a company (and you might) and one of your employees went outside the building and killed someone, should you be put in jail for that?

No of course not, you just hired and trained the person to do the job you hired them to do. Nowhere in your training did you tell the person it was OK or not OK to kill people outside the building.

Now is this really something Bush and Rumsfeld should be fired for or is this just a convenient reason to say they S*ck?

Oh and yes, I did want to debate this because I knew I would fine lots of folks in our forum here who would be on both sides of the issue. I for one don't understand how or why people are trying to hang Rumsfeld or Bush for this one. So, what better way to find out than to debate the issue with those who think so.


:unsure:

[Rapunzel]

I shouldn't have been so ambiguous. They should have been fired and tarred and feathered long ago. It's not just about the prisoner abuse.

I think we are about to find out that the problem is widespread. It's not just a few rotten apples. The few rotten apples are members in good standing of the Bush administration.

But I don't really like to talk politics very much.

[Ramon]

I totally agree with what lightwav has to say, I think they are doing a great job and just do what they have too. Yeah sometimes things get a bit rough but they will figure it out.

[lightwav]

Originally posted by Rapunzel@May 10 2004, 08:27 PM
But I don't really like to talk politics very much.
Yeah, I hear ya :D

Might not be the best way for all of us to get along :unsure:

[Rick]

i think they should get fired so i can apply it seems like an ez job hahahaha

[midnightblue]

Rumsfeld is not reponsible for the actions of the ground troops. He has very little control over what they do but he is reponsible for how the abuse is handled after it has been uncovered. How badly America and President Bush get tarnished by this scandal will be the reponsiblility of Runsfeld. If his intial handling (keeping the information from the President and not breaking the bad news to the public himself but letting a news program do it) is seen as an inept or an attempted cover up, that will dictate if he should be removed.
"Bad Apples" is the worst excuse for punishing the lowest common denominator in any scandal. This has always been used to absolve the command staff of any reponsibility for any wrong doing in every organization. If an organization can blame a few lowly members and sacrafice them publicly, then our need to see someone punished is satisfied. Administrators know this and will do it quickly because it will save their jobs and keep other dirty laundry from being aired. We want someone blamed quickly and then we denounce them as being Bad Apples to show that we are different from them. We want to show that we are better than they are because we can tell that what they did was wrong. The soldiers that are accused of committing these abuses are very like us. They were sent there to do a job and were told by our President, Mr. Runsfeld, their commanders, our news media, etc. that they had a very important job to do. They were told that we are good and that those in Iraq that oppose us are bad. The mission is simple, it is the good (us) against the bad (them). If we are the good, then all our actions should be good and if our actions are bad but they bring out a good end, then are actions can't be too bad, right? Here the abuse is bad, but if through this abuse we can uncover a bombing plot that was aimed at killing US soldiers, then the end (goal) is very good. If the end is so good, saving US soldier's lives is very good, then is the abuse bad at all?
Rumsfeld’s job shouldn't depend on what the soldiers did in Iraq, but on what he did after he found out about it. His job is still to protect our country either from terrorist attacks or from very bad publicity. Here the Bad Apple concept applies again. If he is made to resign quickly, we are all happy that the bad apple is gone and we quit looking into what is wrong with our foreign policy. But, the longer he stays the more the media and the public will study and pry into our foreign policy and then more dirty laundry will be aired.
There is no ethical justification for the abuse, but publicly sacrificing soldiers who were carrying out a job they were told to do, either through a written order or an implied order, is wrong. They should be punished but the punishment should only be for the wrong they committed, and it shouldn't just be them. The punishment should also apply to anyone in the command staff, as high up as it can be tracked, who condoned the abuse or implied to these soldiers that their bad actions would lead to good ends and there for would be tolerable. To severly punish only these soldiers to make an example of them is very wrong.
How would you feel about the soldiers accused of the abuse if they were our brothers, sisters, friends, neighbors, etc. Would you still be wanting only them punished?

[lightwav]

Midnight... I agree with part of what you said but..

Everyone seems to be making a big deal about when the media or the world was told about the abuses.

Well ya know.. It's war time and I for one don't think the media or the world should know everything that goes on in a war play by play.. It puts us at a disadvantage with the enemy!!

Let me ask you this..

In your honest opinion do you think if we all (the world) knew of the abuses 2 months earlier that the muslims would now love us and we would all sit around the fire and sing Kumbaya together? I don't think so.. They hate us, they want to kill us, they want to kill our mothers, brothers, babies, sisters and they want to behead innocent workers from PA.

You think we would have looked any better in the muslim world's eyes or they would have wanted to blow up a few less NON muslims if we could have just broken the news a little sooner? NO, of course not..

Everyone seems to be so worried about what the muslims think of us NOW.. Whatever... They hate us now, then, before and later regardless of how much good or bad we do. This is just an excuse to throw up and say, see here is our justification for blowing up innocent people, beheading them and so on.

These people are freakin' twisted so who gives a **** what they think of us at this point.

People (muslim and NON muslim) sit around and crybaby about the fact that these prisoners got womans underwear put over their head and that they were humiliated. OK, big deal... We had over 3000 people lost in 911, they were innocent men woman and children that had NOTHING to do with our government policies or military. I think most of the families of those lost in 9-11 would be much happier to be dealing with a little humiliation over underwear over the head rather than their loved ones being DEAD!

I am not saying that the reason we should be in IRAQ is 9-11 because I am not sure I believe that at all. I am simply debating the issue of the abuse and how it compares to what muslims have done to us in the last few years alone.

We put underwear over a SOLDIERS head and the world is outraged and pictures must be shown the world over.

I ask you where the media circus and outrage and pictures are of the man from PA who had his head sawed off with a knife the other day in Iraq? They video taped it and put in on the Internet. Nice! So where is the world outrage and mainstream media pictures of this? How about the burned, dead sevillian workers hung in the streets of Iraq. They kill our people who are not even soldiers and it's ok but god forbid we "HUMILIATE" one of their "SOLDIERS" and all hell breaks loose.

OK stepping off the platform now :)

RANT OVER..

[Eagletx21]

Did anyone see the Video of the U.S. Man Being Beheaded on camera? Well, I did off of this web site. An it was the Non Edited Video. Very Sad. They show it all I mean all. I say we fire Bush and Rumsfeld all together. Before more of our Soldiers are killed and other U.S. civilians for the fault of these two men.

:angry:

[lightwav]

FYI, nothing personal here..

Simply debate, which I think is food for the mind..

[lightwav]

Originally posted by Eagletx21@May 12 2004, 11:07 AM
I say we fire Bush and Rumsfeld all together. Before more of our Soldiers are killed and other U.S. civilians for the fault of these two men.

:angry:
What?

Now it's Bush and Rumsfeld that are to blame for that?

How?

The fault is with the Twisted people that did this..

You are only falling right into what they want.

They say "We do this because of the abuses" or "We do this because Bush sucks".

So how easy are we? We do and think exactly what they want?

See my last post and the previous ones by me in this thread..

How can you possibly think that any one person (Bush) can be responsible for the individual actions and decisions made by millions of military people? :unsure:

[midnightblue]

I wasn't aware that if they committe more savage acts, that our abusive actions become ethical.
I thought the reason we were in Iraq was because our way of life was better than theirs and our American values are values that the world should follow.
If we can justify abusing prisoners because they video taped the murder of an American, how many more murders can they justify because we invaded their country?
I wasn't aware either that we had declared war on Muslims. I didn't know that all Muslims hated us. I thought we had quite a few living in the US, loving it, and some even serving in our Military protecting our country. I believe some of them are law enforcement officers who are willing to put their lifes on the line to protect not only you but your property.
What matters is not what the Muslims or the world thinks about us, but what we think about ourselves. If we see nothing wrong with with abusing prisoners, Do we still see our selves as good people? Or do we now see ourselves as above all others with the right to abuse those under our control? Saddams ways. Same victim different suspect.
Rumsfeld is not going to be made to resign by the Muslims or the world, but if at all, by President Bush or the American public.
Do you think our President believes that humiliating prisoners is ok and is lying when he said he was disgusted by the abuse?
If I told you that I found the abuse justifiable and saw it as proper because of the savage murder of our civilians, would you beleive me when I told you I really believed in God and that American values are Christian values?
The problem is not that the pictures were published, but that the acts were carried out.

[lightwav]

>>
I wasn't aware that if they committe more savage acts, that our abusive actions become ethical.
>>

They don't and I am not saying it's a good thing to abuse prisioners, I am saying that we should look at the whole picture and not just o afew incidents of a few individuals. In any large group of people there are always a few bad apples that make bad decisions, how does that make their bosses also bad apples?


>>
I thought the reason we were in Iraq was because our way of life was better than theirs and our American values are values that the world should follow.
>>

That's right but at the same time you can't win a war strictly on ethics or what's pretty and nice. To win a war people are killed and yes humiliated. Do you think we would even be a country today and have our indepence if we just asked England nicely to give it to us? NO, we had to break out the guns and start killing people to make the point. Savage? Maybe.. But it's what wars are about killing people. They are suppose to be soldiers though not innocent people..


>>
If we can justify abusing prisoners because they video taped the murder of an American, how many more murders can they justify because we invaded their country?
>>

They think it's smart to strap a bomb on themselves and blow themselves up just to kill innocent men woman and children who happen to be a different religion! Who cares what they can justify, they are WHACKED! Their logic is severly flawed!

>>
I wasn't aware either that we had declared war on Muslims.
>>

Ok, you know because it was christians that flew planes into the world trade center. It was what the Jews who commited 90% of the rest of the horrible acts of the last decade? Must have been the Budda's that did the rest?

No they were ALL muslims.. Enough said about that..


>>
I didn't know that all Muslims hated us.
>>

Ok, that's a matter of opinion.. In the Corin (not sure how to spell) from what I understand it states that all the infidels should die.. We are the infidels brother, meaning those that are not muslim. How can you misinterpret that?


>>
I thought we had quite a few living in the US, loving it,
>>

Lots of people live in our country not because they love the people but because the love the benefits and money they make.


>>
and some even serving in our Military protecting our country.
>>

You mean like the US muslim soldier who threw grenades under a tent full of his fellow soldiers in Kuwait last year? Is that what you meant? For the record, having the same people as part of our military as those we are fighting is not by my choice.


>>
I believe some of them are law enforcement officers who are willing to put their lifes on the line to protect not only you but your property.
>>

Maybe, I can't say that as a rule EVERY single muslim has the same thought structure but it's a pretty sure bet that they do.

I can see how most people would be afraid to say these things but.. I am not, I see things for the way they are. The obvious.. I do not think that stereo typing a group of people is very smart but I guess in this case.. Well.. You know if you get bit by a dog 3 or 4 times in a week don't you get the idea that maybe just maybe the dog might bite again? If you don't then I am pretty sure that is not too smart either.

I have an issue with the religion and it's teachings more than with the people who follow it. Whatever the teachings are (and I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch) it seems to breed hate for all people who are different from them? Can we at least agree on this?


>>
If we see nothing wrong with with abusing prisoners, Do we still see our selves as good people?
>>

Once again, I DO see something wrong with it but I gotta tell you it beats the hell out of being beheaded or burned alive then hung in the street.


>>
Or do we now see ourselves as above all others with the right to abuse those under our control?
>>

What would give you the idea that any of us think that?


>>
Do you think our President believes that humiliating prisoners is ok and is lying when he said he was disgusted by the abuse?
>>

No I think most are disgusted if you are any kind of human being. See the key words are human being.. Question is, do you consider human beings the same species that can saw off an innocent mans head with a knife and video tape it for all to see? Well do you? :blink:


>>
Rumsfeld is not going to be made to resign by the Muslims or the world, but if at all, by President Bush or the American public.
>>

Why should he resign? Still have not heard a good argument for that. I don't think not liking Bush or his administration is a valid reason.


>>
The problem is not that the pictures were published, but that the acts were carried out.
>>

The acts should not have occured, I agree.. AND I would like to get a hold of those that did this to the people and to our country. None the less this is war time and things happen. The acts of abuse by a few are the real problem but pictures being published of it will only result in more dead US solders and I say if keeping them hidden keeps a few more solders alive then we should do it. If it means keeping the peace as much as possible so we can bring this conflict to an end then I say do it.

People were happy to see these pictures in the media for ONE reason, so they could have a reason to put Bush and his administration in the cooker. Not because the abuses were terrible.. COME ON, let's see this for what it's worth.. It's a selfish act on the part of those that want to fry Bush and his cabinet. I for one think that most people that are running around yelling "Fire Rumsfeld, Fire Bush, the abuses are terrible" could care less about those people or the fact that they were abused. They are simply Bush haters, republican haters and would jump at any chance to try to fry Bush even one as far fetched as this abuse situation. :huh:

[lightwav]

Regarding this:

>>
I wasn't aware either that we had declared war on Muslims.
>>


We did however declare war on terrorist.. Now we can all sit here and say that Terrorist does not equal Muslims but I prefer to stay in the real world.

Once again, I don't see many catholic groups of terrorist.

I don't see many Jewish groups of terrorist?

I don't see many buddist terrorist?

Baptist? Methodist? Hindu? Jehova? Mormon?

No to all...

Muslim? Yes, countless.. Along with the countless lives of innocent people (NOT SOLDIERS) that have been lost.

[lightwav]

OK, last thing... I swear..

I do not believe in discriminating against someone based soley on their background or color or...

I do however think that it's really odd that we (the human race) are smart enough to stay away from different types of animals like Lions for example because you know well :blink: they might bite our freakin heads off! Because you know, that's what they do, lions kill things and eat them. But.. At the same time we are not smart enough to see a group of people that will kill us and say "Hey wait a minute, might not be smart to get near that group because they might KILL US". We do this why because even though it's not smart, we don't want to be unkind or mean to some that are part of that group that may not be that way. Well I say that if you don't like that then don't be part of the group. Being muslim is a choice not something you can't change like your color or nationality.

Ya know when I was a kid I hung around with bad kids that did some bad things. I did not do those same things, I just hung around with people that did. People thought I was bad too because of the group I hung with, I got sick of getting a bad wrap just because I hung with those people.

Guess what? I stopped associating with them, did not identify myself as part of the group and stayed as far away as possible.

[midnightblue]

You know a lot of Mexicans sell dope. Do you think that all Mexican sell dope?

Lot of African-Americans are on welfare. Do you think they are all lazy?

Lots of White people are racist. Do you think they are all racist?

You said you like to tell it like it is. Be honest now. You can't be prejudist against one group but be OK with all others. If you generalize about a group of people because of their religion, sex, skin color, nationality, etc., you generalize about everyone you group. I don't think I would want you as a friend. I believe you would find something about my skin color, religion, sex, etc. that would characterize me as sub human. May be I voted the wrong way the last time or didn't pray at the same church as you did, or maybe I am not divorced so their must be something wrong with me.

Remember Timothy McVeigh,Ted Kaczynski, Paul Hill, Bernadine Dohrn, and lets not forget the groups like the Irish Republican Army, Red September, Sendero Luminos, KKK, Neo Nazis, Weathermen Underground, Republic of Texas, and the list goes on. I don't think they believe in Ala.

Another thing, because we stop haning out with those that are doing bad things, it does not absolve us from being part of those bad things. If I stand and watch a friend beat and rob a person, I can't claim I did nothing wrong because I did not actually participate. I did wrong in not doing the right thing and stopping the robbery.

We will always be judged accurately by our words and actions and not by the words or actions of others.

If I missed judged your person, then others will judge you more accurately by your words and action and not by my comments.

Don't take it personal. :)

[eagle4ever]

MID.. i think he's talking about ratpunzel... if she doesnt like it she can leave... like she did in the other forum she would post at.

[lightwav]

>>
You know a lot of Mexicans sell dope. Do you think that all Mexican sell dope?
Lot of African-Americans are on welfare. Do you think they are all lazy?
Lots of White people are racist. Do you think they are all racist?
>>

Don't try to make me a general racist here.. I am not talking about any group other than Muslims.

Remember my comments earlier about the things this GROUP has done.. None of the groups above have done this on or near the level that this GROUP has.


>>
You said you like to tell it like it is. Be honest now. You can't be prejudist against one group but be OK with all others.
>>

WRONG!


>>
If you generalize about a group of people because of their religion, sex, skin color, nationality, etc., you generalize about everyone you group.
>>

I am not generalizing about any of the above except for religion and only one religion.


>>
I don't think I would want you as a friend.
>>

I am sorry to hear that, you can't always make friends when being honest. Besides I told you this was not personal but it appears it has gotten that way for you.


>>
I believe you would find something about my skin color, religion, sex, etc. that would characterize me as sub human.
>>

Probably not unless you belonged to a group that was known for killing innocent people just because they are not the same religion as them! Then I would have a problem with you. You are once again generalizing.. Once again, Muslims choose to be part of this religion that breeds killing of innocent people for no good reason. If they don't want to be thought of in that manner then they should break free from that group.

Funny, I would think you would understand some of what I am talking about here. Let's look at it this way.. If you see a person that hangs with a group of criminals on a regular basis and the group of criminals is known to carry firearms. Now you see this person with a shiny object in his hand in a dark alley, what do you do? Now come on quick?? Remember, you don't know this person and you don't know that he is actually a criminal or has ever done anything wrong.. But if your life is on the line and it comes down to it what are ya gonna do? Well it's not right to do anything drastic I suppose but tell me at that moment what you were thinking.. Were you a little more scared than if you came across someone else with a shiny object in hand that had nothing to do with a known group of armed criminals?

I am not saying I am proud of my stereo typing of this group, I don't know how I feel about it.. I am just looking at the history of all of these situations around the world and coming to a conclusion that YES as a group these folks are pretty twisted people. YES some may be peace loving people but I am not talking about those people. I am talking about the group as a whole.

Please see my comments earlier about the Lions.. The fact that we as humans are smart enough to stay away from different animal species because they normally bite but it's not OK to stay away from certain human groups because they usually BITE or Kill or whatever.

Let's not learn from history or experience, let's just pretend none of it ever happened and not say anything bad about killers because it's just not nice.


>>
Remember Timothy McVeigh,Ted Kaczynski, Paul Hill, Bernadine Dohrn, and lets not forget the groups like the Irish Republican Army, Red September, Sendero Luminos, KKK, Neo Nazis, Weathermen Underground, Republic of Texas, and the list goes on. I don't think they believe in Ala.
>>

Actually if you are looking for a serial killer you are probably looking for a white guy. Just based on history..

All freaks, what's your point here? They don't believe in Ala, so.. They were twisted groups too. I would also say that if you were part of one of those groups (Nazis or whatever) then you had problems too.. If you are part of a group who does bad and evil things are you just as much to blame for being a part of and supporting that group?

Like I said earlier, I found myself around some bad people when I was younger.. I got away from them because I did not think the things they did were right. If you are part of a group and you don't agree with it's actions or teachings then get away from it. If you don't remove yourself from the group then you can't be to horrified by what your group has done. No?


>>
Another thing, because we stop haning out with those that are doing bad things, it does not absolve us from being part of those bad things. If I stand and watch a friend beat and rob a person, I can't claim I did nothing wrong because I did not actually participate. I did wrong in not doing the right thing and stopping the robbery.
>>

I agree that you would have done wrong for not helping but I missed the rest of your point here.


*****

Now then, we clearly don't agree here and I don't like it that I feel this way about any group of people. I just can't see how it's sensible to turn the other way here and not see this particular group for what they are.

I do believe that their are some good people as part of this group but.. I also think that regardless of what most may say to you or me or to a news camera, they could really be no happier than to see us DEAD.

I don't want to forget the DC snipers either.. Muslims..

It's not a race I have anything against or people really.. It's a religion that seems to be breeding nothing but hatred. I wish I could see it some other way because maybe it would make me feel better about the things I am saying here.

I can't help but saying once again...

If you walk into a cage full of lions and you get out barely alive because they ate most of you, do you go back in the cage? Do You?

Ok then if you wouldn't go back in the Lion cage why do you have to think so differently about another group of killers? Is it just because society has told you that it's not nice to stereo type people? Well, why stereo type the lions? Not every Lion in the cage wants to kill you right? I mean one could be a vegitarian? No? I realize that there is proof that Lions eat meat and kill for their food but hey, you might make that one vegitarian lion over in the corner feel bad if you unjustly call him a meat eating killer.

See my point? Somehow, I don't think you do.

In any case, I will not bring up this sort of stuff again because I am more interested in making friends on the forums here than the opposite. I thought some healthy debate about current issues would make things a little more interesting but.. Since I am the board admin it's probably not a good idea to participate on this level :(

Besides that, as I said I am not proud of my stereo typing here I don't think.. Just trying to be sensible and learn from history and from what I see over and over again.

Peace to you Midnight, really :D

[lightwav]

Originally posted by eagle4ever@May 12 2004, 08:12 PM
MID.. i think he's talking about ratpunzel... if she doesnt like it she can leave... like she did in the other forum she would post at.
Eagle, I was not talking about Rapunzel at all.

Just wanted to clarify..

I think I responded earlier to her in this post but it's been some time.

[ojosclaros]

"I wasn't aware that we'd declared war on Muslims"

You're exactly right, we haven't. Why haven't we?? Because we're living in this day and age of politically correct bull$#t. Our government is so afraid of hurting someone's feelings because of their race, religion, or color that it makes me sick.

One day, hopefully, someone will finally have the guts to declare war on the Muslims and admit the truth, that we (people of countries that observe any of the many religions based on Christianity) are in a religous war (isn't that why the Muslims call it "jihad"??) Don't believe me?? Look at the facts of the following current conflicts in the world and you decide:

1. Bosnia: Muslim factors fighting against Christians

2. Croatia: Muslim factors fighting against Christians

3. Serbia: Muslim factors fighting against Christians

4. Chechneya (Russia): Muslim factors fighting against Christians

5. Iraq: Muslim factor fighting against Christians

6. Israel: Muslim (Palestinians) fighting against Jews.

Come on, open your eyes folks!! Its time to declare war on Muslims......because they've already declared war against us.

[Rapunzel]

If we declare war on Muslims, will that be all Muslims, even American Muslims? After all, they have a choice. They don't have to be Muslims. They could convert to a religion that is not violent - Christianity, so they can be like the blessed KKK.

All of you guys seem to have listed out names of terrorists both in America and in other countries. But you have failed to notice the ONE thing they ALL have in common. It is not their religion. So we should not declare war on any religion. You know who we should be slaughtering. You know.

It is disgusting to read of people wanting to declare war on a religion. As far as I am concerned that makes your ideas no better than the terrorists'. What percent of Islam do you think are terrorist? We look at pictures of our GIs doing disgusting things and want the world to realize that not all of our GIs and not all Americans are like that. Yet you look at some Muslims doing disgusting things and want to declare war on Islam.

[lightwav]

>>
What percent of Islam do you think are terrorist?
>>

If it is a small percentage then their leaders should stand up and tell their people, thier followers and the world that it's WRONG! Not praise them for victory!!

If their leaders are idiots and Muslims follow these idiots then what does that make them?

I don't think the question is how many are actually terrorist, I think the question more appropriately is this..

What percent of Islam do you think would like to see you and your family and friends DEAD if they had the opportunity? If they carry out the acts or not, I am pretty sure most of them hate all NON muslims because that's what they were taught.

Nobody has addressed the fact that their own book (the corrin, not sure how to spell it) tells it's followers to seek out and KILL the infidels.

Listen, wake up folks.. We are the infidels.. Doesn't that make you at least a little uneasy? :blink:

[lightwav]

>>
It is disgusting to read of people wanting to declare war on a religion. As far as I am concerned that makes your ideas no better than the terrorists'.
>>

By the way, I don't think it's a matter of us declaring way.. I think they have a long time ago.. It's just about time we as American's stand up and realize it and respond approriately.

It's a matter of self defense..

When are we gonna stop worrying about insulting people that just want us dead and start defending ourselves like we should. It seems that we have become a nation of sissies that sit around and talk about how we might offend the very people that are killing our citizens and people of all races around the world. I think it's time we stand up and kick some butt.. I think we started some of this in Iraq and Afganistan and this is the very reason why people "SAY" they hate Bush. Well, come on! Who is to say that the things we are doing today are not THE ONLY reason that we did not see 9-11 10 or 15 more times since the first one????

How did you feel on 911? You want to feel that fear again or on a regular basis? I know that I for one was at least a little fearful every time I went to a mall or any public place for a long time.

If you would like them to come to us like they did on 911 and fear for your life and your families in our own country on a regular basis.. If you would like to live as they do in Isreal where every time you turn around some as*h****** is blowing himself up in the HEB or Albertsons just to take out 20 infidels with him which could be you and your family while you are shopping. If you want to feel that fear then I say let's play it your way.. I for one would like to go to the grocery store or ball park or whatever with my wife and kid and not have to fear the the guy next to me is going to stand up screaming Ala, Ala, Ala and blow up me and my family.

Whatcha think? This is how you want to live?

You folks want to talk about the poor innocents that may be insulted.. Well, they can dis-associate themselves from the religion! I for one would rather insult a few people and have the America back that we once had before 9-11. I would like to be able to go to the stores and public places and not have 3 security guards sniffing my butt for bombs. I would like to go to the Airport and not see machine gun carrying solders.

Muslims and no other group have caused our country to become a BIG mess! If you can't see that then you gotta wake up and smell the coffee.

[ojosclaros]

"declare war on muslims, even American muslims?"

The so called "American Muslims" follow the same teachings as those throughout the rest of the world. The Koran and its message doesn't change their meaning just because it is being taught here in the supposed "land of the free". These so-called "Americans" are not here to become "Americans" and to learn about and try to assimilate into the "American" culture. They've come here chasing the almighty dollar ($). Muslims are taught from a very early age to hate the western culture and all religions besides their own. I believe they should be considered to something similar to a cancer. Catch it early while its small, remove it, and you'll be fine. If not, its going to continue to grow and spread until finally it destroys you from within.

[noa1116]

First of all I think Rumsfield and president Bush are doing a good Job.But I think this prison scandel is a bunch uf bull. Now I've been to the front lines of combat I've guarded prisoners of war and I don't think what these soldiers did was that bad you people got to remember those prisoners are the ones that are killing American soldiers, they the ones that are draging American civilians and hanging there dead bodies from bridges, they are also the ones that are cuting Innocent Americans heads off on video tape you know that poor Man Nick Berg He wasnt there to hurt them or help in the conflict he was there to help the Iraqi people build there communication system up and this is how they repay him by cutting his head of well I dont know about you but to me thats pretty messed up. In the state of Texas if you are found guilty of killing someone you get put to death. Yet some of these prisoners have killed more than one or two people and all they get to do is sit in some jail eating three meals a day sleeping on beds.While are soldiers are sleeping in the sand mabe geting one or two MREs(meals ready to eat) a day Thats bull. Now Im not saying what these soldiers did was right cause it wasn't but these prisoners got alot less than they deserve.Now I don't think its rumsfields fault for what these stupid soldiers did there are alot of American military people in Iraq and everywhere else in this world we cant have him looking over all of there shoulder to see if they are doing some thing wrong all the time thats imposible that is up to the individual soldier to know right from wrong these soldiers should have had some common sense. If they didnt know what was right or wrong they should of asked some one, thats why there is a chain of command.I believe its stupid the way the media blows the story out of porportion they are not the ones there and all there doing is making it worst on the service members that are there right now, by making us look like we are a bunch of perverts. :angry: no wonder they want to kill us. well thank you for your time.