Which Presidential Candidate Will You Vote For? [Archive]

noa1116

05-25-2004, 03:27 PM

B) Well I will vote for President Bush I think he is a good president he has just had a rough term in office. I'm not saying he doesnt have his faults but i think that he a good tough President. Kerry plans to take away weapons from the military and to reduce the size of the military if he gets in office. I dont think thats a good idea if we pull out of iraq and afganistan then the terroist will have time to get together and plan there retaliation against the United States now I dont know about you but I don't really want to deal with another 911. With president Bush in office the terroist are afraid to even show there face. There hasnt been any attacks on American soil since we brought the war to them I would rather keep it over there then have them bring it over here. Yea America is probably the most hated country but we have always been the most hated country because alot of other countrys hate the freedom we have. I watch Kerry speak and it seems all he wants to do is to oppose President Bush. For example if President Bush says he is against gay marriages Kerry will later come on and say he is for gay marriages I want a President that could speak for himself not say what everyone wants to hear. Kerry went to veitnam and thats very respectable but then he came back and started talking bad about the military why? Why would you talk bad about the people that are fighting with you they are doing the same thing he did. Yea we are fighting two wars one in afgan and in iraq but if we leave now who is to say that the terroist wont come back in to power is that what you want to fight a bigger war in the future. well that will be enough for now thank you for your time.

eagle4ever

05-25-2004, 09:05 PM

im voting for the one with the LONGEST

eagle4ever

05-25-2004, 09:06 PM

political career

BlueCollar

05-26-2004, 12:28 PM

LOL eagle4 but bush is the best. :)

HEBclient

05-27-2004, 03:14 AM

"I respect your opinions, noa1116 and those who like Bush. I have to say that president Bush has caused more harm to America than any president i know. My biggest reason for disliking George W. Bush is for having attacked Iraq. I don't understand why it's so hard to understand the real reason behind Bush attacking Iraq. It was never about terrorism. The real reason why Bush attacked Iraq was simply because he wanted to finish what his father George Bush Sr. didn't do. First you have to go back and see what president Bush Sr. did,and then what he didn't do,to understand my point. The following was taken from": The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright © 2003 Columbia University Press
Copyright © 2004 Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Gulf War, Jan.—Feb., 1991, armed conflict between Iraq and a coalition of 32 nations including the United States, Britain, Egypt, France, and Saudi Arabia. It originated with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait on Aug. 2, 1990; Iraq then annexed Kuwait, which it had long claimed. Iraqi president Saddam Hussein declared that the invasion was a response to overproduction of oil in Kuwait, which had cost Iraq over $14 million when oil prices fell. Saddam Hussein also accused Kuwait of illegally pumping oil from Iraq's Rumaila oil field.

The UN Security Council called for Iraq to withdraw and subsequently embargoed most trade with Iraq. On Aug. 7, U.S. troops moved into Saudi Arabia to protect Saudi oil reserves. On Nov. 29, the UN set Jan. 15, 1991, as the deadline for a peaceful withdrawal of Iraqi troops from Kuwait. When Saddam Hussein refused to comply, Operation Desert Storm was launched on Jan. 18, 1991, under the leadership of U.S. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf.

The U.S.-led coalition began a massive air war to destroy Iraq's forces and military and civil infrastructure. Iraq called for terrorist attacks against the coalition and launched Scud missiles at Israel (in an unsuccessful attempt to widen the war and break up the coalition) and at Saudi Arabia. The main coalition forces invaded Kuwait and Iraq on Feb. 24 and, over the next four days, encircled and defeated the Iraqis and liberated Kuwait. When U.S. President George H. W. Bush declared a cease-fire on Feb. 28, most of the Iraqi forces in Kuwait had either surrendered or fled.

Although the war was a decisive military victory for the coalition, Kuwait and Iraq suffered enormous property damage, and Saddam Hussein was not removed from power; in fact, he was free to turn his attention to internal Shiite and Kurd revolts and moved to brutally suppress them.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

"So as you can see, Saddam Hussein was not removed from power because George Bush Sr. didn't want the US and Coalition forces to enter Iraq and finish him. That decision came to be regretable. All along the border between Iraq and Kuwait, all that the US & Coalition forces could do was watch Saddams military forces (what was left of it) brutally kill and mame Shiite and Kurds who had tried to help depose Saddam Hussein internally.
That brings me as to why George W. Bush attacked Iraq. I'm sure that having been the son of a US president, the then Gov. of Texas George W. Bush we can reasonably say that during those Family Reunions (Thanksgiving gatherings), Bush Sr. commented on his regret in not having gone in and finish Saddam Hussein. I'm sure Bush Jr. didn't have to be reminded since Bush's Sr.'s decision was expertly debated thru the media outlets. I'm sure that when Bush jr. was offered the nomination for republican candidate for US president. The thought of becoming president and having the power to disburden Bush Sr. was weighing heavily on his mind. He had to win the nomination and the presidency! After Bush jr. won, now he had to find an excuse to attack Iraq and finish Saddam Hussein once and for all. But how? Then came Sept. 11th. Perfect! Bush declares war on terroritst(ism). After strong inteligence, US targets and destroys terrorist camps in afganistan. Now is the perfect time to start bringing Iraq into the picture. Bush starts mentioning Iraq at every opportunity. Increasingly mentioning that Iraq itself is a terrorist threat to the US. He leaves behind his initial mission of bringing to end and or bringing to justice the culprits who attacked the World Trade Center (US).
Bush is now on (his) mission. The number 1 item on (his) agenda, attack Iraq! Nothing was going to stop him! He solely took ON Congress and even the United Nations. But, not to serve and defend the American people but to accomplish (his) hidden agenda. Experts in the field, diplomats, ex-military advisors and such, paraded and expressed their grave concern in attacking a country who they thought was not a terrorist threat to the US. America has always had dictators, presidents, heads of state who were at odds with the US including Castro, Chavez and others who have even threaten to assasinate our US presidents! But did we go after them with full military force. NO! So now i ask you. Why did we attack Iraq? And let us not go into the infamous "weapons of mass distruction". Which by-the-way, were never found. Thank you for listening to me. I know i will not change the minds of ppl who have already made up their mind about Bush jr. But i ask you. Did you make up your own mind or did Bush jr. convince you too?"

JorgedeTexas

05-27-2004, 07:24 AM

Also, Bush does not care about his employees. If you see that Texas state employees never received a raise when Bush was in office. Now he wants to do that for federal employees, not give them a good raise. Government employment is a way out for many minorities, especially Hispanics, from the low paying jobs that are like in Eagle Pass. He has cut down many veterans benefits also. Most of the base closers and reduction of our armed forces were lead by Republicans who don't care about minorities since they make up the majority of the armed forces.

elek_trik

05-27-2004, 10:40 AM

[FONT=Optima]Not saying he's a bad person, but he hasn't exactly been one of our best presidents either. I mean c'mon, even the guy's approval rating has plummetted recently. That being said, I'm voting for John Kerry. John Kerry has his own set of problems, granted, but at least he's the lesser of two evils *sarcasm*. :rolleyes:

noa1116

05-28-2004, 01:25 AM

Well HEBclient you do make a good point I'll give you that But alot of what you said was your theory cause come one you dont unless you now the Bush family personally you don't really now what was said at there family gatherings.I don't now about you family but in my family we don't really talk about what we did at work or we didn't do. Yea we did have a chance to finish off Sadam back during the first Gulf War but that wasn't the objective the objective was to get the Iraqi army out of Kuwait. If you look at the big picture there was no reason for us to take him out of power he wasn't a big threat and when he first came in to power he was a good leader he started an education program for all the Iraqis and showed that whole contry how to read and write. The reason Saddam attacked Kuwait was because his country desperatly needed to get back on its feet after the Iraq/Iran war he saw Kuwait as a country with enough money and oil to get Iraq back on its feet But Saddam failed to realize that the United Nations got there oil from there and didnt want that country to be taken over. Now no one really new what was going to happen if we left Saddam in power but we desided to give him a second chance on some conditions that he let inspectors come in and inspect which Saddam listened to until President Bush Sr. left office. I think the war in Iraq was justified because after 911 every one was scared of another attack yea we took out afgan but most of the same terroist where iraqis. yea the weapons of mass destruction where never found but that doesnt mean they never had any they did have antrax and they did use chemical weapons against there own people.yea we did have other countrys that hated us but all the other countrys didn't really have the funds or the resources to build a weapon of mass destruction. Iraq was the only rich capable nation with the hatred for us to do build a weapon of mass destuction.Or would you of rather waited till the weapon of mass destruction hit New York and killed millions of people?well thats all Ihave to say for now thanks for you time.

BlueCollar

05-28-2004, 03:33 PM

WELL SAID noa. Thats double for me.

GREAT INFO!

lindac

05-28-2004, 04:29 PM

HEBclient,

Bravo! FINALLY, someone has reached the meta-level and has the guts to say pan es pan y vino es vino!

Thank you for addressing what is really happening--the hidden agenda. This war has nothing to do with terrorism; it is a war about power, control, economics, and HIDDEN AGENDAS! We as Americans live in a secularized world. Terrorism has existed for many, many years and will (like racism, poverty, crime) continue to exist for many years to come. How many times have other countries experienced terrorist attacks (England? France?) Do they go to war every time? No. No. No.

We as Americans have not had war fought on our soil since the Civil War. 911 was a wake-up call that our ostrich days are over. How stupid people sounded when they asked "Why do they hate us?" The question they should have been asking is "Why did I never pay attention to what has been happening for decades?" Yes, folks, the ugly American myth rears its ugly empty head!

Bush is a FIGUREHEAD. A PUPPET WITH MANY STRINGS!! The man cannot construct a sentence correctly in English. He has shown great ignorance in his speech (Bushisms) that demonstrates he cannot converse without prior guidance (example: to a Hispanic graduating class: Not everyone has to go to college. We need people to do the hard labor. And at a Jewish concentration camp: Boy, they sure were big on crematoriums!) If (and I mean IF) we had really gone to war to find the weapons of mass destruction (found to date number? 0!), and there are none -- why are we still there?

And as for bringing democracy to the Middle East! How would we like it if someone came over to save us from our American Dog Infidel Ways in order to turn us into Muslims? How many of us would go gently into that good-night? No one is putting a bayah (sp) on me! :angry: What gives us as Americans the right? To confiscate weapons, Yes! To change the culture of people who have existed that way since the beginning of time, No. Ooops, excuse me, not "US" but "THEM" big businesses (namely big OIL businesses) who JUST HAPPEN to want to save the people who happen to live in OIL RICH COUNTRIES!!!! Yep, (wink, wink) they've developed a sudden urge to go help them poor people over and free them there women so they kin get a education and be free. FREEDOM IS RELATIVE!

We are in a Republican era. I have difficulty accepting this. But HEBclient, you have chimed a note of accordance with someone else who happens to be wiling in a mars of malcontedness. And I am only too happy to say the Emperor truly has no clothes.

Sincerely,
LC

elek_trik

05-28-2004, 05:59 PM

:lol: Well spoken, lindac, but wow, relax, chill... lol..... and I agree with many of ur valid points, although not to your degree of belief and enthusiasm... its good that you don't believe everything that is said; we must be discuss these things people, we just can't take in everything we are told at face value, and accept it as fact... there must be criticism and debate. It is a FACT that this has been the most secretive administration in the history of our nation. All we think about when we think about this war is "me, me, me", and it seems ignorance is bliss... we should not be so selfish and arrogant as to think ourselves superior... true wisdom comes from realizing we know what we know, but that also we do not know everything.

Personally, it didn't really matter to me what happened to those prisoners, even tho i've been arguing that we shouldn't have done it... if anything, I was apathetic to the situation... but I know if I was in their shoes, I wouldn't want to be treated like that. This "gung-ho, don't give a fark" attitude that some of us seem to be observing isn't going to work, we have to be the better people here, we have to set the example.

Anyway, I'll step off my soap box now... but honestly think about whats being said here people... don't blindly believe everything you are told. oh yea, and have a nice day :)

lindac

05-28-2004, 06:14 PM

:unsure: SORRY! I can't help it, this war makes me so upset. I remember Vietnam and all those poor guys dying, and for what! War is a reality, but a war with unrealistic goals really makes me :angry: ! I will try to chill, as you suggest!

lindac

05-28-2004, 06:20 PM

:unsure: elik_trik,

P>S> What did you mean when you said this is a secretive administration? Do you think they knew about 911?

LC B) (note, I am now chilling. It is safe to reply!)

elek_trik

05-28-2004, 06:59 PM

oh, and one more thing... i have one major disagreement with ur post... this statement is incorrect...

And as for bringing democracy to the Middle East! How would we like it if someone came over to save us from our American Dog Infidel Ways in order to turn us into Muslims? How many of us would go gently into that good-night? No one is putting a bayah (sp) on me! What gives us as Americans the right? To confiscate weapons, Yes! To change the culture of people who have existed that way since the beginning of time

we're aren't changing their culture, lindac, we're only changing the government. We're bringing in democracy, a form of government... culture and government do influence each other, but they're seperate things nonetheless. Democracy and Islam have nothing to do with one another, so ur statement of "how would we like it if they turned us into Muslims" is also flawed, because you yourself say we're bringing in democracy, not christianity... ur comparing apples and oranges. Even IF (big IF) we were foolish enough to do such a thing, history has shown us that changing another's culture never works.

elek_trik

05-28-2004, 07:05 PM

lol not like that... i read it somewhere, and even heard it from the news, but i can't remember where i read the article, but basically, they hold secret meetings that the Associated Press is not allowed to, nor are able to inquire about... why? Because the Patriot Act nullifies the other act or charter (cant recall the name) that permits private business and news inquiries to put pressure to let the public know what is happening; Bush's personal files are not to be de-classified for decades, stuff like that

Eagletx21

05-28-2004, 07:52 PM

VOTE BUSH 2004! OR VOTE KERRY 2004!

Give the guy a brake it's not all his fault we went to war. Let's not forget U.S. Intelligence is to blame for that not Bush. He just wanted to protect us. Things seem to be turning around now. The job market is getting better things are moving faster in Iraq by the time we know U.S. will be out of Iraqi.

Let's not all just go vote for Kerry now. He has not said anything about returning our troops back home if he was elected. So if your vote is all about the war, think twice because John Kerry has a long Past and let me tell you it isn’t pretty. This is a man that went to war came back and protested about it. Almost as if he was ashamed of being an American and an American Solider.

Kerry Vs. Bush it's a tough one.

One more thing we didn't go to war for OIL because if we did we wouldn’t be paying so much for Gas right now.

Get the facts and make the right decision.

We woudn't want to go from Bad to Worst would we?

lindac

05-28-2004, 08:07 PM

Elek_trek:

RE:

Democracy and Islam have nothing to do with one another, so ur statement of "how would we like it if they turned us into Muslims" is also flawed, because you yourself say we're bringing in democracy, not christianity... ur comparing apples and oranges. Even IF (big IF) we were foolish enough to do such a thing, history has shown us that changing another's culture never works.

I would like to clarify my point in that their religion IS their government. There is no separation from church and state! Their culture and law is BASED the Koran! That is what I meant by my comparison of what is happening. If they invaded the US that is exactly what would happen, a merge of religion + law + culture. Hence, my view that our attempts to create a "democratic government" is, as you might say, foolish! Let's end this war and bring our troops home!

Thanks for your comments! :)
LC

elek_trik

05-28-2004, 08:17 PM

well anyway, back to the topic at hand ^_^ ....

http://www.cs.utsa.edu/~grobert/bush.jpg

AZURE

06-23-2004, 02:45 AM

Heh, well im new to this forum but i may as well put my two cents in where it counts.

The major lesson we learned from 9-11 was not to wait until it was too late to do something about a threat. According to our intelligence, and Russia for that matter, Iraq was a threat. The same people who are crying foul now would be the same people who would have crucified bush if Iraq had attacked us of we had found out he was harboring terrorist. well gee our intelligence said he was dangerous. Russia warned he was dangerous. and you did nothing. just like your father. disgraceful. Please. The UN had been threatening Iraq forever. Comply or we will take measures. they have no credibility. At least bush goes through with what he says he will do. and he knows where he stands. He has made all the right decisions. My brother is in the military. he is in Iraq right now as a matter of fact. He was one of the soldiers that was extended. He doesn't mind being there. he is proud to be there. he understands exactly what he is doing. AND he is terrified that Kerry will win. Everything they have done over there. everything they have endured. every person who was injured or killed over there, will have been for nothing. and don't kid yourself eagletx21 is exactly right. Kerry cant bring back our troops now. this has started and it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. we have to finish it and we have an obligation as Americans to support it.

" SORRY! I can't help it, this war makes me so upset. I remember Vietnam and all those poor guys dying, and for what! War is a reality, but a war with unrealistic goals really makes me ! I will try to chill, as you suggest!"

I am so sick of hearing people compare this war to Vietnam. you know the only similarity between this war and that is that a lot of selfish un-American #@!&*!@# don't support it.

"Also, Bush does not care about his employees. If you see that Texas state employees never received a raise when Bush was in office. Now he wants to do that for federal employees, not give them a good raise. Government employment is a way out for many minorities, especially Hispanics, from the low paying jobs that are like in Eagle Pass. He has cut down many veterans benefits also. Most of the base closers and reduction of our armed forces were lead by Republicans who don't care about minorities since they make up the majority of the armed forces."

as for that minority sminority grow up and stop whining. who gives a f*ck. people act as if being a minority entitles you to something. well it doesn't. why they don't have the same education. bull sh*t. if you don't like the education your getting educate your self. don't have the same opportunity. yeah right. you have more opportunities than you think if you care to look for them. people to cry that they are lower in the world because they are a minority have no respect from me. that is just an excuse for being lazy and feeling sorry for themselves. As far as government work goes, yeah if I wanted to have a sure and steady income and had no little ambition and wanted to be sure i could screw over my employer if they every tried to fire me for being horrible at my job. i would be a government employee too!

as far as hidden agendas. yeah there probably were some BUT Attacking Iraq was necessary. responsibility dictated it. but revenge on Sadam for trying to have his dad assassinated, the possibility of a little power, putting his fathers mind at ease, possibility of helping the American economy, *GASP* how DARE HE!!!!!!!! nice bonuses. nothing sinister though. people are just looking for an excuse to scream.

well...that should do it. guess now im the most popular girl in the forums....thoughts opinions?

B)http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kerry_fonda_rally.jpg

kurtmasur

06-23-2004, 04:03 AM

Ok, here are my two cents contribution on the current events (my two cents are a bit complicated, so I've tried to make my post as "short" as possible)

I think the root of all of this evil comes down to two things: Israel, and Skull and Bones. As you may know, Skull and Bones is a secret society at Yale University and is EXTREMELY powerful. They induct members during their senior year, and maintain a lifetime commitment to the Society and its members/alumni. This small network of elite people strive to give each other positions of power. Incidentally, Bush, Bush Sr., and Bush Sr.'s father belong to Skull and Bones.
The founder of Time Magazine was a Skull and Bones member. Kerry is also a member of Skull and Bones. The top people at just about every major company are affiliated. i.e. JP Morgan, Newsweek. Also, many top US government people are affiliated, including two US Supreme Court justices, and various members of Bush's administration (not surprising since Bush himself is a Skull and Bones member).

But don't just take my word for it. If you've never heard of it, or don't know much about it, google it on the Internet and take time to read through the info carefully. You'll be in for a big surprise.

The other root in all this evil is Israel. Israel is the REAL power behind our puppet US government. They are spying on us big-time, and have even been able to tap into the White House. Read more on this: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html
The stuff in it is pretty scary, and it is backed up with sources, so just don't take it's word for it. It gives you much to think about.

Israel has used the information they have gathered from spying on our gov't to sabotage it. For example, have you noticed that every time that Israel commits atrocities against the Palestinians, every country on the UN panel EXCEPT the US condemns Israel's actions?

IMHO, Israel planned the 9/11 attacks in collaboration with the Bush administration. It was a win-win situation for both. Israel needed us to fight its enemies (the Arabs). Bush needed to do his oil buddies a favor and attack Iraq for oil. He also went to Afghanistan for opium (a precious Skull and Bones commodity).

On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

So anyways, because the 9/11 attacks were co-planned by the Bush Administration, it was no surprise for Bush during the morning of 9/11 at the exact moment of the attacks. Check this out:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/schoolvideo.html
It's the same clip that's featured in Farenheit 9/11.

Other things to consider:

Did you know that on the morning of 9/11, a group of Israeli men in a white van were found celebrating the attacks on the WTC as they were happening? When arrested, the men told the police: "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem"
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

Furthermore, I find the following statement by a US official rather disturbing:

"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information." -- US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring and its connections to 9-11.

To this date, the US government will not talk about these Israeli men. If the Isreali men really didn't have anything to do with 9/11, then what is the gov't hiding?

Think about this.

mena

06-23-2004, 10:30 AM

Azure, well said. :)

SaleenS7lover

06-27-2004, 02:00 PM

Oh SHIFT! I put Kerry By accident! <_<

HEBclient

06-29-2004, 02:36 AM

RESUME: George W. Bush
The White House, USA

EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:

Law Enforcement: I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.

Military: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

College: I graduated from Yale University. I was a cheerleader.

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for US Congress and lost.

I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.

With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected Governor of Texas

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR:

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union.

During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any Governor in American history.

With the help of my brother, the Governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week.

I spent the US surplus and effectively bankrupted the US Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in US history.

I set an economic record for the most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the US stock market.

I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

I set the all-time record for the most days on vacation in any one year period.

After taking-off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

I am supporting development of a nuclear " Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.

In my State Of The Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by a US president.

In my first year in office over 2-million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any president in US history.

I set the record for least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in US history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families--in war time.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people) shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

I've broken more international treaties than any president in US history.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

I am the first president in US history to order an unprovoked, preemptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of US citizens, and the world community.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the US from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war "detainees" and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.

I am the first president in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US election).

I am the all-time US and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.

My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, resided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in US history. My political party used the Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the US Supreme Court during my election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the US after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the US the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.

I am the first president in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.

I changed the US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to justice.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

All records of my tenure as Governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed, and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-president, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

Please consider my experience when voting in 2004-

SaleenS7lover

06-29-2004, 05:40 AM

Because of the War...
In Iraq...

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

SaleenS7lover

06-29-2004, 05:44 AM

And about those weapons of mass destruction...

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate,
air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998.
We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities.
Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated
the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan.23.2003

SO NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES??? Boy! Talk about two tongued philosophy!!!

eagle4ever

06-29-2004, 08:56 AM

WHATS UP WITH THE COPY N PASTE?? :blink:

nyc

06-30-2004, 01:54 PM

I live in New York and work in Manhattan, near the Financial District, every single day and I am mortified of a second Bush term. I am much more in danger of being at the wrong place at the wrong time through Bush's short sighted actions than before. We have played right into the hands of Bin Laden and have handed him an infinite fresh supply of recruits.

Personally, I don't think Bush is an idiot. He is a talented and well intentioned man. He is just wrong.

SaleenS7lover

06-30-2004, 06:21 PM

John Kerry’s claims: Tuition costs are higher because of President Bush.

Reality: Tuition costs are down 33% since 1998.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/200...over-usat_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-06-28-tuition-burden-cover-usat_x.htm)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was just a standard poll of 500 people, most of who probably won’t vote but I thought it was kind of interesting:

“He is a caring and compassionate person”

Bush: 45%
Kerry: 37%

“He shares my values and beliefs”

Bush: 45%
Kerry: 38%

“He is a ‘people person’”

Bush: 45%
Kerry: 41%

“He is a friendly and likeable person”

Bush: 44%
Kerry: 36%

“He sometimes seems cold and distant”

Bush: 39%
Kerry: 36%

“He has a boring personality”

Bush: 37%
Kerry: 41%

HEBclient

07-03-2004, 12:36 AM

Eagle4Ever wrote, "What's up with all the copy n paste??".

In my defense Eagle: "I did not copy n paste my piece on George W. Bush Resume i submitted. I took the time and typed every single word. I can't help that it looks like i did, it's just that i'm that good!" ~HEBclient

SaleenS7lover

07-03-2004, 08:35 AM

:lol: I did!
C'mon, it saves alot of time. I have life that I must live, rather than sit around on my computer all day arguing about politics and what not. :blink:
.... I dont say this in a conceited kinda way. I'm just saying.
No offense to any anyone.

eagle4ever

07-03-2004, 10:31 PM

UR HILARIOUS HEB-CLIENT. GOOD JOB!(LOL@ THE RED RACETRACK)
SALEEN,, NO OFFENSE TAKEN :D

HEBclient

07-04-2004, 01:33 AM

Thanks Eagle....and DITTO on the (RED RACETRACK)!

and Saleen: no offense taken.

kurtmasur

07-14-2004, 11:13 PM

For the good of this country, it is time to oust Bush and the Zionist neocons currently in the White House! Read on:

We've all seen the video. It figures prominently in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11". It is the video of George Bush at Booker Elementary School being informed by Andy Card of the second impact of a passenger jetliner into the World Trade Center, then sitting there for several minutes reading about goats.
What damns the Bush administration is not what is in this video, but what SHOULD be in the video and is not. Ostensibly, Bush and Card are reacting to a surprise attack, but Bush does not act surprised, and Andrew Card does not act like a man delivering an unexpected piece of news but instead is merely delivering a progress report to which he already knows Bush will not have an immediate response.

There is one more thing that should be in this video and isn't, and that is the Secret Service, the protective detail whose one and only job is the President's safety.

The fictional Sherlock Holmes solved the crime in "Silver Blaze" deducing that it is the owner of the house who is the criminal. How does he know? Because the dog did not bark. The only criminal who could could carry out the crime and not arouse the dog was a criminal the dog already knew as a friend, the dog's owner.

Now let us turn our Sherlockian logic on 9-11. Hijacked aircraft were wandering across the eastern half of the country. In theory nobody could have known how many there are or if more planes were not in the process of being hijacked. How could they? Two of the planes had crashed into the World Trade Center. There is an airport only four miles from Booker Elementary School, and Bush's presence at the school was in the news media days in advance. The Sarasota Herald Tribune announced Bush's visit to Booker on September 8th, given the 9-11 planners three days to include Bush as a target for a diving jetliner. Nobody could have safely assumed he was not a target.

And yet the Secret Service did not rush in and remove the President to a secure location, or at least to the safety of the armored Presidential Limousine. That's their job. That's what they do in the case of a real surprise attack with so many unknowns. They don't do anything else.

But the Secret Service did nothing. The dog did not bark.

Bush defenders try to explain away Bush's inaction as not wanting to upset the children. Michael Moore explains away Bush's inaction by suggesting he hadn't been told to leave. But Michael Moore failed to follow that line of reasoning through to its logical conclusion; where were the people whose job it is to get the President to a place of safety in event of attack, the people who would have, SHOULD have, pulled Bush out of there, children and public appearances be damned!

The Secret Service did nothing. The dog did not bark.

If the events of 9-11 were really a surprise to the United States Government, then there is no way that the Secret Service could know there wasn't a hijacked or stolen plane headed towards Booker Elementary School that very second.

The Secret Service did nothing. The dog did not bark.

The Secret Service should be in that video but they are not. From their inaction, it is clear that the Secret Service KNEW FOR A FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS NOT A TARGET OF ONE OF THE HIJACKED PLANES. And the only way anyone could know that for a fact at that moment is to have known what the targets of the hijacked planes were, at that exact moment, standing there in the school.

The Secret Service did nothing. The dog did not bark.

Quod Erat Demonstradum, the Bush Administration was part of the 9-11 plot.
for more info:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/9-11secr...retservice.html (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/9-11secretservice.html)

I am neither Democrat nor Republican, but to those Republicans out there, I would consider voting for someone who acts in the interests of our country than in the interests of other countries (like Israel).

mob_heir

07-18-2004, 07:47 PM

***Removed by moderator***

SaleenS7lover

07-18-2004, 10:33 PM

Either way, I now believe Kerry's gonna win. Not really much because of himself, but because of his running mate, Edwards. Bush should've replace Cheney with McCain. Maybe then he would have had a chance.
Regardless of who wins though, we're still gonna have problems. <_< So honestly I dont care. I cant make a difference. I cant vote! :lol:

kurtmasur

07-18-2004, 10:34 PM

mob_heir, you're on the right track. I don't understand how people from our Mexican-American background can vote Republican, considering they represent the anglo-white American folks.

What I understand even less is how people, including Republicans, vote for Bush. The guy is a liar--period. He got us into the Iraq war based on lies. Where are the WMDs? If you've read my previous post, then you should understand how Bush himself was part of the 9/11 plot. The guy needed an excuse to get us into war, and so he plans the whole 9/11 attacks in order to sway us into giving him a blank check. As a result, we 're in two simultaneous wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Geez, America is a heck of a lot safer because of these wars. Never mind that our death toll in Iraq has been over 700 already, not including Iraqi lives.

And why does Bush and Congress yield unlimited support for Israel? Never mind that the Israeli government commits many atrocities against the Palestinians, like building that wall on Palestinian land and bulldozing Palestinian homes to make room for the wall. Every country in the United Nations Security Panel EXCEPT the United States condemns Israel's actions no matter what. The fact that this country goes out of its way to support Israel in EVERYTHING, just plain angers me. Already this year Congress has passed resolutions supporting Israel's actions.

Then there's the mainstream media like CNN, CBS, Washington Post, New York Times, Time Magazine, Fox News, etc. What they report (or what they don't report) is disturbing. These media companies are just that, corporations that are controlled and headed by wealthy billionaires who are protected by Bush and the Republicans. These media groups go out of their way to paint a rosy picture of Bush. They too lie to us with their "poll" numbers, which are supposed to be scientifically valid statistics. It's ridiculous when they say that Bush is ahead in the polls over Kerry. The media lies to us through these "polls" just so that we can support Bush. Given all of Bush's "accomplishments" during his term, not that many people support him. Just ask anybody out in the street about their preference. Heck, just look at the poll in this topic. Bush's support is low. Simple. His support is even lower if you look outside of the country. Virtually everybody from outside of America doesn't like Bush. Just get on any foreign chat room, mention you're from Texas, and you'll see what I mean.

Like I said in my previous post, I am neither Democrat nor Republican. To be quite honest, I don't like the idea of Kerry being president either. He too supports the Iraq war, and has unlimited support for Israel. He too would also put Israel first, and America second.

My fellow Eagle Passans, I urge you to get your news from alternative news sites that DO report what happens.
A great invaluable site is www.whatreallyhappened.com
It's a great page to begin your browsing. Each day is filled with articles that you are sure worth considering.

In addition, many foreign media are great sources of news about America that you will NEVER see on CNN. I recommend the UK's The Guardian Newspaper www.guardian.co.uk , www.elpais.es from Spain, though, you will need a subscription. You can also get your news from foreign editions of Yahoo, such as www.yahoo.es (I'm sure all of you read Spanish). If you speak French, I recommend France's Le Monde www.lemonde.fr

Anyways, to close, if you belong to either of the two major parties, please write to your respective leaders in your party to help choose candidates that put America first and not Israel.

Kurt

SaleenS7lover

07-18-2004, 10:44 PM

One last comment from me and I'm gone! I find no interest in arguing here about politics any longer...

Voting for Kerry is like running in the special olympics... Even if you win, YOU'RE STILL RETARDED! :lol:

~Debbie Minton (Your "white trash", mob_heir)

kurtmasur

07-18-2004, 10:49 PM

I don't mean for this to become an argument. I would like for all of you to wake up and smell the reality. Please check out http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

I feel it's a duty to stop the mainstream media from fooling our population with whatever they want to feed us.

As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on...

mob_heir

07-19-2004, 11:31 PM

***Removed by moderator***

elek_trik

07-20-2004, 09:03 AM

<_< damn mob... chill out... I'm on your side, but talking crap ain't gonna get you anywhere.

kurtmasur

07-21-2004, 01:48 PM

I'm sure you all have read about the possibility of postponing elections in case of a major terrorist attack.

Incidentally, the Government has been issuing warnings about a MAJOR terrorist attack sometime during this election period. However, I think it's funny how not one specific detail (or clue) is known as to when and where.

Assuming that the elections get postponed, guess WHO would benefit? HA! You guessed it...Bush! It is only in HIS interest to cancel/postpone elections as he knows his approval ratings are at a record-low in America. He knows that with elections taking place, his chances of re-election are slim. So Bush now needs an excuse to postpone the elections, and I bet you they're already working on it. Already the government talks about a major terror *threat* before the elections!
The whole thing just seems fishy to me. (If you've read my previous posts, then you shouldn't be surprised that I believe Bush is planning another attack on America, just how he did with 9/11--in collaboration with Israel, of course. Arabs would again be framed, like always).

With this in mind, consider this: Let's pretend that the elections actually get postponed/cancelled because of some terrorist attack. Let's suppose that the terrorist attack happens in AnyTown, USA. WHY then, would it be necessary to cancel elections in the ENTIRE United States? I find it quite illogical that if some catastrophic event happens in AnyTown, USA, I will not be able to vote in Eagle Pass, TX. Nor will the folks in Portland, Miami, Tulsa, Honolulu, Anchorage, El Paso, etc. be able to vote either in their respective cities. This really angers me. :angry: :angry: :angry:

My fellow Eagle Passans, I urge you to write to our congressmen in Washington and demand to know WHY it would be necessary to cancel elections in the ENTIRE country for some attack that happens in a single corner of it.

:angry: :angry: :angry:

Eagletx21

07-21-2004, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by kurtmasur@Jul 21 2004, 02:48 PM
My fellow Eagle Passans, I urge you to write to our congressmen in Washington and demand to know WHY it would be necessary to cancel elections in the ENTIRE country for some attack that happens in a single corner of it.

:angry: :angry: :angry: [/b]
How can we have Elections if our country is attacked? Excuse me for sounding rude but that is a stupid question. Where were you on Sept 11, 2001? Didn't you see how the people in our country felt. They felt sad, scared,confused. Some people where panicking.

I doubt that if our country is to be attacked come election day the main thing in people's mind is to go out and vote.

People didn't even come out of their homes for days after Sept 11 happened. Why do you think our Economy suffered a great deal after Sept 11?

And besides it would not be fair for either candidates for a certain city, county or state votes not be counted because of a terrorist attack.

Another Thing the War in Iraq was not Bush Fault get the facts here people. We have the CIA to blame for this. U.S. intelligence didn't do their job so because of them and the British Intelligence we have the War in Iraq to blame for. Not President Bush.

kurtmasur

07-22-2004, 12:33 AM

Like the majority of Americans, I was not in New York City nor in Washington DC during 9/11. Yes, I remember that all of us were concerned about homeland safety on that day, but since the attacks did not happen here in Texas, nor in the rest of the states, everyone else just had news to follow on TV (from the mainstream media, which I've cautioned the readers on this forum before). Should any terrorist attacks happen on or before election day, there is no reason for them to be cancelled for the entire country, if only one or a handful of places are targets.

Think of the 3/11 Madrid train bombings. Spain had elections during those days. The elections were scheduled on a Sunday, and those attacks happened on a Thursday, just three days before. The Spanish public did not let these terrorists stop them and continued with their elections even while in mourning.

Rene, you should follow Bush's example when he was at the elementary school in Florida at the exact moment of the attacks. Instead of cancelling the event with the children, he chose to continue with it, despite the attacks. If you don't believe me, you can follow up the facts from:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/9-11secr...retservice.html
The site is loaded with references, so don't just take its word for it.

In any case, you are wrong, Rene, about faulty intelligence from the CIA. The desperate Bush manipulated our intelligence sources to find ANY excuse to go into Iraq. The guy already had Iraq as a personal ambition well before 9/11. The Bush administration, in collaboration with Israel planned the 9/11 attacks. They are doing the same now just to have some "powerful" excuse to cancel/postpone the elections. Like I said before, WHO would benefit? Only the guy already in power, Bush.

Don't let the mainstream media fool you! They are only corporations that are controlled by powerful billionaire guys that fall under the protection of Bush. I urge all readers to wake up and read news from other sources of news that the mainstream media will seldom, if at all, report to you.

On a side note, if you're the type that gets their news from mainstream media (CNN, Fox News, New York Times, etc.), then I encourage you to rethink all that you've been learning about 9/11 from these sources. I recommend the 9/11 section from the following link:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/quickindex/

kurtmasur

07-22-2004, 12:45 AM

In my last message, I meant to address you, Eagletx21. (I did a boo-boo when I said Rene).

Eagletx21

07-22-2004, 01:15 AM

Rene, you should follow Bush's example when he was at the elementary school in Florida at the exact moment of the attacks. Instead of cancelling the event with the children, he chose to continue with it, despite the attacks. If you don't believe me, you can follow up the facts from

What was the man to do stand up and scare the small kids he was reading too by saying I have to go our country is under attacked? And it's not like he stayed the entire day reading to the kids. He was finished moments later and left in an orderly fashion. With out making a scene. Is that what you would of liked to see. Don't you remeber the President was taken to Air Force 1 and flown at the highest altitude possible to prevent any missle that may be lauched towards the air craft to be unreachable. Then he was later taken to a secret location underground where he was protected by armed military personel.

The problem here is that you are getting facts from unreliable news sources. The Media cannot go on national TV and lie to us about what is happening. The lying comes from Web Sites on the Internet that start all of these Urban Myths about what really happened on Sept 11, 2001.

Don't you all remember the pictures that came out days later about the man that was on top of the building and the air plane was right behind him just about to hit the building. Or what about he twenty dollar bill that if you fold it in a certain way you can see the world trade building being attacked.

Stop reading all the online garbage you find on the Internet. Unless it comes from a reliable news source its all BS.

kurtmasur

07-22-2004, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Eagletx21@Jul 22 2004, 02:15 AM
Don't you all remember the pictures that came out days later about the man that was on top of the building and the air plane was right behind him just about to hit the building. Or what about he twenty dollar bill that if you fold it in a certain way you can see the world trade building being attacked.

Eagletx21, I have NO idea what you're talking about in the above quote. I am aware of a lot of Internet garbage out there. All I'm saying is that you should treat all news sites with a healthy dose of skepticism, including mainstream media. When I began reading http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ I was very skeptical of the stuff I learned there. What made it really convincing was the wealth of references that corroborate the facts. The site doesn't just throw these facts at you, it's your job to verify that they're true...And that's what makes www.whatreallyhappened.com stand out from the junky, garbage conspiracy sites.

So, if you don't believe what you've read from clicking on my links, then you either are not taking your time to verify the facts, or you just didn't go to the site in the first place. I can only do so much, so if you want to remain blind by intoxicating yourself with mainstream media garbage, then peace to you.

And to answer your question, yes, Bush should have stood up and evacuated the school immediately. That he would have caused the children to panick? TOO BAD, a national emergency is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY--children and public appearances be damned! He is the President, and he has a job to do. On a side note, Bush was informed of the first jet hitting the first tower on his way to the school, but he went to the school anyways!

In any case, it is the Secret Service's job to protect our President no matter what. It's what they get paid for, period. They should have just grabbed him and pulled him out of there. Let's think about it, Air Force 1 was sitting in an airport only FOUR miles away and our country is under a "surprise" attack. So if Air Force 1 was really a target, why didn't the Secret Service grab the President and get him to the plane immediately? How could the Secret Service assume at the moment of the attacks that the terrorists had nothing planned against our President??? Bush's scheduled appearance at this elementary school was publicly announced in two Florida newspapers three days before his arrival--more than enough info for the terrorists! After reading to the children he stayed behind to say a speech at the school! Golly. The Secret Service didn't act to protect our President, which means the attack was no surprise. It was all planned. Please do your homework and do your own research. If you still want to believe what you hear on CNN, then peace to you.

mob_heir

07-22-2004, 10:04 PM

***Removed by moderator***

Eagletx21

07-22-2004, 11:14 PM

EAGLETX21 IS A RETARD. HE'S PROBABLY A PROUD DUMB BEANER SOOOOOOO F*CKING PROUD OF KNOWING A "LITTLE" MORE THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON ABOUT POLITICS AND THAT MAKES HIM THINK HE'S GOD OR AT LEAST MAKES HIM THINKS HES PART OF SOMETHING (BECAUSE LIKE ALL DUMB BEANERS THEYVE NEVER BEEN A PART OF NOTHING EXCEPT WORKING ON THE FIELDS PICKING TOMATOES, ONIONS, ETC). LOSER

Well, I guess we have the first Racist Red Neck in the Forum. Congratulations on that Dumb ass.

I can't believe they let you on this forum.

kurtmasur doesn't agree with what I have posted yet he doesn't go all nuts like you and calls me things that I am not.

It seems the only retard is you. Stop making a fool of yourself and go back into your trailer and drink yourself to bed. That's if you have not done so already.

desdemona88

07-23-2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Eagletx21@Jul 23 2004, 12:14 AM
EAGLETX21 IS A RETARD. HE'S PROBABLY A PROUD DUMB BEANER SOOOOOOO F*CKING PROUD OF KNOWING A "LITTLE" MORE THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON ABOUT POLITICS AND THAT MAKES HIM THINK HE'S GOD OR AT LEAST MAKES HIM THINKS HES PART OF SOMETHING (BECAUSE LIKE ALL DUMB BEANERS THEYVE NEVER BEEN A PART OF NOTHING EXCEPT WORKING ON THE FIELDS PICKING TOMATOES, ONIONS, ETC). LOSER

Well, I guess we have the first Racist Red Neck in the Forum. Congratulations on that Dumb ass.

I can't believe they let you on this forum.

kurtmasur doesn't agree with what I have posted yet he doesn't go all nuts like you and calls me things that I am not.

It seems the only retard is you. Stop making a fool of yourself and go back into your trailer and drink yourself to bed. That's if you have not done so already.
ummmm EagleTx21... not all people who live in a trailer are drunk Racist Red Necks :( The best thing to do with a person like Mob is to simply ignore the ignorant... by replying to his post.. you are merely giving "it" what "it" is seeking... attention.... My mom use to say... "mejor haber un pendejo que dos y el pendejo que no sea tu mismo"...so dejalo que hable... or just report him....

kurtmasur

07-23-2004, 02:52 PM

I agree that we should all refrain from name-calling and treat our fellow peers on this forum with respect. This forum is to express our views and to conduct an otherwise healthy debate.

On a side note, there is nothing wrong with working in the fields, "picking onions, tomatoes, etc.". As we say in Spanish, mientras te ganes la vida honradamente no hay de qué te avergüences.

As long as you're not a thief, scum or a sloth, you should be proud of who you are.

Like always, I urge all of you to take the time to browse through the links on:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Eldude

07-23-2004, 04:22 PM

Vote for Bush! If you vote for Kerry, expect another terrorist attack.

kurtmasur

07-23-2004, 05:08 PM

Vote for Bush! If you vote for Kerry, expect another terrorist attack. --Eldude

Eldude, personally for me, it really doesn't matter who wins. Both Bush and Kerry are members of Skull and Bones, an elite secret society at Yale University. To sum it in one sentence, Skull and bones is a satanic organization and functions in the same way as a typical mafia. They strive to give its members powerful high-level positions in government and in corporations. Even the mainstream media has made some mention of this, but it has been very limited.

Anyways, if you've never heard of Skull and Bones, you can learn about it directly from CBS News: (That's right, from the mainstream media!)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/...ain576332.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml)

In any case, Kerry is also pro-war and would continue Bush's mess in Iraq. Although for the most part it's a lose-lose situation, Kerry is definitely the lesser of the two evils, but nevertheless still an evil.

Regardless of who wins, the government would continue to use "terror" tactics to scare the hell out of us so that we can let them manipulate us (e.g. Patriot Act)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Eagletx21

07-23-2004, 05:54 PM

I have heard some interesting things about this Skull and Bones Secret Organization. I knew Bush was a Member I didn't know Kerry was. I saw something in the News where Bush accidentally said something really interesting about the Organization I just can't remember what and he immediately turned it into some joke of his in front of the media some laughed others saw it as an accidental outing of information about the group and their intentions.

All I have heard is that members of this group are individuals that are really Powerful and Rich. Some people think they will try to take over the world with their power and money. Yet that will be hard yet nothing is impossible in this world.

And Thanks for the words of advise everyone. I will just ignore mob_heir for now on.

desdemona88

07-23-2004, 06:51 PM

Wasn't there a movie out a while back called "Skulls"...... If I recall correctly it was about that organization....

kurtmasur

07-23-2004, 11:49 PM

That's the same organization I'm talking about, Minnesota. Like Eagletx21, said, the Skull and Bones (S&B) have a lot of power and its members are really rich and in powerful positions. The organization's ultimate goal is for world domination through a so-called New World Order (basically a one world government). You will find many of them in top-level cabinet positions, in Congress, and even in the US Supreme Court.

Some examples include:

--Artemus Gates, (class of '18) President of New York Trust Company, Union Pacific, TIME, and Boeing Company.

--Russell W. Davenport, (class of '23) editor of Fortune Magazine, and he created the Fortune 500 list.

--Pierre Jay, (class of '92) first chairman of the Fereral Reserve Bank of New York

--Henry Luce, (class of '20) founder of Time-Life

--Senator John Heinz (class of '31; think ketchup)

--Evan G. Galbraith (class of '50), Ambassador to France and Managing Director of Morgan Stanley

--Richard Gow (class of '55) president of Zapata Oil

--Winston Lord (class of '59) Ambassador to China and Assistant Secretary of State under Clinton.

--Potter Stewart (class of '36) US Supreme Court Justice

--George Herbert Walker Jr. (class of '44) financier and co-founder of NY Mets

--Amory Howe Bradford (class of '34) husband of Carol Warburg Rothschild and general manager of the New York Times.

As you can see, these people are EVERYWHERE--in corporations across many industries, including the mainstream media, which is why I don't trust the news from them, because they control what news we see and DON'T see. Take for example the subject of B&S itself, which the mainstream media has barely touched.

There have been two brave journalists who have conducted substantial research, Anthony Sutton, and Alexandra Robbins. S&B has gone out of its way to make their lives hell for putting the spotlight on the organization. Because of B&S's influence, they persecuted them by having them bumped them from job to job. As a result they have worked for a long list of newspapers. You can find their work in the following link:

http://www.truthseeker.co.uk/Articles/skul...l_and_bones.htm (http://www.truthseeker.co.uk/Articles/skull_and_bones.htm)

In addition, the following website has 11 juicy chapters devoted to S&B. Please read it when you have enough time, because it is LONG, but well worth the read:
http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societ...l_and_bones.htm (http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/Groups/Order_of_Skull/order_of_skull_and_bones.htm)

mob_heir

07-25-2004, 09:58 PM

***Removed by moderator***

noa1116

07-26-2004, 12:08 AM

:angry: well there mob heir if you think that being mexican is something bad well tough cause like you said you are mexican. Its just to bad that you are so ignorant that you don't realize the good things the mexican culture brings to this country. mexican people are some of the hardest working individuals in america and for most of us the money isn't important any fool could rob cheat or steal to get money no for most of us mexicans our family is important and earning what you work for.I was in Operation Iraqi Freedom and let me tell you one thing when the bullets come flying at you it don't matter what race color or religion you are the person fighting next to you is your brother and by chance alot of the military is made up by hispanic people thats including mexicans. so unless you actally did something for this country don't be putting other people down. If theres a job thats not going to hire me because Im mexican well its there loss cause I would not want to work with them anyways. and no its not cold here it pretty hot with all that hot air that you type up. Oh and if you don't like our food don't eat it.

eagle4ever

07-26-2004, 10:55 PM

MOB HEIR FKA RATApunzel :blink:

Eagletx21

07-26-2004, 11:10 PM

EAGLETX21 I CAME HERE TO CONTRIBUTE THE BEST THAN I CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THIS COUNTRY NOT TO BRING MY LOW-CLASS THIRD WORLD COUNTRY IDEOLOGIES TO F*CK UP THE COMMONWEALTH OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY.

First he comes to our country. Not born and raised like so many of us here. Then he acts and talks like someone he is not. LOSER!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

IF YOU F*CKED UP AT THE COUNTRY YOU USED TO LIVE AT AND YOU STILL F*CK UP AT THE COUNTRY THATS GIVING U THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE UP FOR IT YOU OBVIOUSLY CANT GO ANY LOWER THAN THAT AND THAT MAKES UP PEOPLE LIKE YOU EAGLE.

First off, I was born in the GREAT USA Unlike you. And I have not F**K UP like you have that you had to come to another country to make up for it. And from the talks of it you are F**KING UP More every time you post.

WHY DONT YOU LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF THE OTHER GROUPS(ASIANS, EUROPEAN IMMIGRANTS, PUERTO RICANS, CUBANS, CHINESE) THEY ALL HAVE SOMETHING BAD TO SAY ABOUT MEXICANS. ALL THE OTHER GROUPS FLOURISH EXCEPT MEXICANS. I HAVE TO SAY ITS A SH*T STAIN OF MY BLOOD TO BE MEXICAN BECAUE IT ACUTALLY WORKS TO SAY IM NOT MEXICAN TO GET THE JOB.

So from what I read I am "guessing." You look White yet you are a Mexican that is trying to pull off the Anglo Image. :lol: Once again you are trying too hard to be something you are not. This will catch up to you in time when the truth is reveled about you in front of you admires the Anglo Folks that are seem to bend over backwards to please. Wet I forgot Most Mexico Citizens are born and raised to treat Anglo Folks like Kings. So you have that in your blood since birth.

HEY WERE ALL IN THE MONEY! :D THAT MEANS SAYING THAT EVEN THOUGH YOURE MY BLOOD BROHTER I'LL SAY " I DONT KNOW HIM/HER AND IVE NEVER MET HIM/HER IN MY WHOLE LIFE" EVEN IF YOU AND I WERE BORN OUT OF THE STOMACH OF THE SAME MOTHER. BUT GUESS WHAT ILL HAVE MORE SUCCESS AND ITS PROVEN VERY EFFECTIVE :) $$$WEEEEEE$$$ :unsure: SORRY IS TOO COLD IN HERE OR IS IT MY WORDS?

You talk like if you where the riches Immigrant in America. For all you know I have more money then you do. Yet unlike you I don't have to hide my true identify to be someone I am not. :D

BY THE WAY EAGLETX21 TELL YOUR MOM I'LL BE SUING HER FOR THE TAMALES SHE SOLD ME. THE SHITTY TAMALES YOUR MOM SOLD ME WERE BEARLY WORTHY OF MY PIT BULLS EATING THEM, YET THEY STILL DIED FOR EATING THAT BEANER GARBAGE.

I am guessing you are drunk as you write this message and you are remember when your mother would work all day making TAMALES. Do you remember when you would go selling your candy in the streets. :blink:

desdemona88

07-27-2004, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Eagletx21@Jul 27 2004, 12:10 AM
EAGLETX21 I CAME HERE TO CONTRIBUTE THE BEST THAN I CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THIS COUNTRY NOT TO BRING MY LOW-CLASS THIRD WORLD COUNTRY IDEOLOGIES TO F*CK UP THE COMMONWEALTH OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY.

First he comes to our country. Not born and raised like so many of us here. Then he acts and talks like someone he is not. LOSER!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

IF YOU F*CKED UP AT THE COUNTRY YOU USED TO LIVE AT AND YOU STILL F*CK UP AT THE COUNTRY THATS GIVING U THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE UP FOR IT YOU OBVIOUSLY CANT GO ANY LOWER THAN THAT AND THAT MAKES UP PEOPLE LIKE YOU EAGLE.

First off, I was born in the GREAT USA Unlike you. And I have not F**K UP like you have that you had to come to another country to make up for it. And from the talks of it you are F**KING UP More every time you post.

WHY DONT YOU LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF THE OTHER GROUPS(ASIANS, EUROPEAN IMMIGRANTS, PUERTO RICANS, CUBANS, CHINESE) THEY ALL HAVE SOMETHING BAD TO SAY ABOUT MEXICANS. ALL THE OTHER GROUPS FLOURISH EXCEPT MEXICANS. I HAVE TO SAY ITS A SH*T STAIN OF MY BLOOD TO BE MEXICAN BECAUE IT ACUTALLY WORKS TO SAY IM NOT MEXICAN TO GET THE JOB.

So from what I read I am "guessing." You look White yet you are a Mexican that is trying to pull off the Anglo Image. :lol: Once again you are trying too hard to be something you are not. This will catch up to you in time when the truth is reveled about you in front of you admires the Anglo Folks that are seem to bend over backwards to please. Wet I forgot Most Mexico Citizens are born and raised to treat Anglo Folks like Kings. So you have that in your blood since birth.

HEY WERE ALL IN THE MONEY! :D THAT MEANS SAYING THAT EVEN THOUGH YOURE MY BLOOD BROHTER I'LL SAY " I DONT KNOW HIM/HER AND IVE NEVER MET HIM/HER IN MY WHOLE LIFE" EVEN IF YOU AND I WERE BORN OUT OF THE STOMACH OF THE SAME MOTHER. BUT GUESS WHAT ILL HAVE MORE SUCCESS AND ITS PROVEN VERY EFFECTIVE :) $$$WEEEEEE$$$ :unsure: SORRY IS TOO COLD IN HERE OR IS IT MY WORDS?

You talk like if you where the riches Immigrant in America. For all you know I have more money then you do. Yet unlike you I don't have to hide my true identify to be someone I am not. :D

BY THE WAY EAGLETX21 TELL YOUR MOM I'LL BE SUING HER FOR THE TAMALES SHE SOLD ME. THE SHITTY TAMALES YOUR MOM SOLD ME WERE BEARLY WORTHY OF MY PIT BULLS EATING THEM, YET THEY STILL DIED FOR EATING THAT BEANER GARBAGE.

I am guessing you are drunk as you write this message and you are remember when your mother would work all day making TAMALES. Do you remember when you would go selling your candy in the streets. :blink:
Hey Hey now wait a minute.. there's nothing wrong with selling tamales... If it wasn't for people making them... I'd be hungry and craving tamales up in the MidWest.... :lol: I love my tamales and thank god for those who make them! Plus they make alot of money.... $10-$12 dollar la dozena.... I envy them...

mob_heir

07-27-2004, 06:32 PM

***Removed by moderator***

desdemona88

07-27-2004, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by mob_heir@Jul 27 2004, 07:32 PM
RULE ONE MINNESOTA AND EAGLETX21: KNOW YOUR ENEMY, SO THAT THERE IS ENOUGH TO LEARN ABOUT A GROUP OF PEOPLE AND KNOW WHICH STRINGS TO PULL TO BRING THEM DOWN.(THERES NOT ALOT OF DEPTH TO LEARN ABOUT PRIMITIVE ILL BORN ANIMALS LIKE BEANERS)

IM A SECOND GENERATION AMERICAN AND YES ITS HARD TO ADMIT MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE MEXICAN. IM REALLY NOT INTERESTED OF BEING TRACKED DOWN TO SOME FAMILY TREE TO SOME PEOPLE RELATED TO AN ILLEGITIMATE RACE PRODUCED BY THE RAPE OF AN AZTEC BY SOME SPANIARD.

IF YOU SEE WHATS BEST FOR YOU, YOU SHOULDNT CARE ABOUT THE ILLEGITIMACY OF YOUR SHITCOLORED MEXICAN BLOOD EITHER.

I AM SORRY THAT I PLAYED YOU FOR A F$CKING FOOL BY INSTIGATING A FOOLISH REACTION BY BOTH U DUMB F$CKS :( ( U DID EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED U TO DO :lol: )OF PRESUMPTION AND BAD ASSUMPTION BASED ON A MERE FRACTION OF INFORMATION. IM SORRY MY SARCASTIC COMMENTS HURT YOUR OVERLY SENSITIVE HUMBLE BEANER HEARTS AND THAT I REACHED DOWN TO OBLITERATE YOUR HEART. KEEP IN MIND I WOULDNT CARE TO USE WORDS TO F*CK U UP SO MUCH TO THE POINT THAT YOUR BODY STARTS REACTING PHYSIOLOGICALLY BY BUSTED LUNGS, TORN LIVER, ETC. I WAS MERELY STEREOTYPING TO THE POINT OF SADISTIC BLISS HE HE :) . SO DO YOURSELVES A FAVOR: DONT SHOW YOUR VULNERABILITY TO COMMENTS ALLOWED BY THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, YOU REALLY LOOK PATHETIC REACTING TO MY TEST :) .
Tooo funny trying to sound educated yet can't spell for ******Censored, please refrain from using profanity on Eagle Pass Online. We would like everyone to enjoy the forums including children. Thanks!******..... IGNORE! :lol:

Eagletx21

07-27-2004, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Minnesota@Jul 27 2004, 08:48 PM
Tooo funny trying to sound educated yet can't spell for ******Censored, please refrain from using profanity on Eagle Pass Online. We would like everyone to enjoy the forums including children. Thanks!******..... IGNORE! :lol:
Yes, this is too Funny. :lol: mob_heir you can't fool no one not even yourself trying to act all educated. The case here is that your little brain of yours has ran out of things to say. Trying to look superior over your race just because you are the first of a long history of working class Mexican's to go to Jr. College and now you think you are it. Do us and yourself a favor and stay away from the Forum. Until you clean up your act and start talking like a normal human being not some low class piece of trash you say you are not.

lightwav

08-16-2004, 08:30 AM

Regarding this Skull and Bones thing...

Guys/Gals... Listen, it's not some magical organization that puts you in places of power.. These people are not in these places of power because they were part of some silly arse college fraternity that's being way blown out of proportion! They are all in places of power due to one common thing which is the same reason they were at Yale.

HELLO! They all were most likely born into very RICH and POWERFUL families.

The fraternity is not what helped put them in these power positions, it was thier family connections to money and power.

Of course, I am not saying that none of them deserve to be there because they worked for their positions (it is possible guys), I am only saying that if there is some common thread that helped to put them all in power rolls, it was more than likely not Skull and Bones, it was their families money and power connections.

Sorry if you all disagree, I am sure it's much more fun thinking that they all meet in some secret fortress somewhere 3 or 4 times a year and sacrifice virgins, drink beer, wear hooded black robes and plot to take over the universe. Just not very realistic :unsure:

Go Bush! Oh and I say that because I really want to vote for Bush, not because I think Kerry is a horrible choice. See, I really am going to vote FOR who i would like to see elected not just against someone else.

Oh and one note for the Hispanic community.. Do you think just maybe that the democratic party takes your vote for granted? You know like, a slam dunk? Like maybe they don't have to do a stinkin' thing to earn your vote because they just assume you will vote democrat just because your parents, brother, sister, uncle and cousin did? Sadly, I think they are right on in assuming your vote as a slam dunk.

Above all else during this election I would like to ask each of you to remember how you felt on 911 when you were not sure if your city or town was next and if you were going to be dead or alive in a few days.. After you dig deep and remember back to that day, then ask yourself who you really feel better about having in power next year!

Yes, jobs, economy etc. are all VERY important things to all of us. I for one think Bush is doing a great job with all of the economy since he took over the country as it was already going down the toilet. Even if I thought Kerry was the better man for every other job including the economy, I have to say I would still vote for Bush because I have this silly thing about wanting to be alive and wanting my wife and daughter to be alive. I think it would be a nice thing to be able to go to public events, the mall, travel etc. again without fearing for my life and the life of my family.

Do you seriously think Kerry is the best man to keep us safe? :blink: If so, I want you to think again how you felt on 9-11. Say what you want about Bush but I would much rather have him at the helm right now than a man who says he wants to fight a "sensitive war" as Kerry recently said. Are we not Americans? If not are we Texans? Do we want to fight a sensitive war or go out there kick some butt until the scum of the earth realize that they can't blow up our buildings and kill our innocent people without paying a price.

Don't start in on Iraq being a good or bad decision, I don't want to argue the point because it's already done. It doesn't matter if it was a good or bad decision (not saying it was or wasn't), it only matters where we are now and where we will be in the future with all this conflict. We have to finish what we started regardless of why we started it! Kerry will only turn us all into a bunch of French speaking, internationally loved bunch of ****Here is where I mention a part of a female which I would not allow others to say on the forum so I won't say it!****... Do we want to be seen as sensitive people, who get their people killed and then talk about it for 10 years with freakin' morons that can't be reasoned with because they only want us dead? OR Do we show these idiots that if they screw with us we will give them their wish and make them heros of their own crazy arse people because we killed them? Hell, I don't care if their people think they are Gods or heros because they were killed in combat, at least that's one less that won't kill me or my family while we are at a football game or at the mall.

Just food for thought..

Rant Over! Go Bush!

OK, I know I said rant over but.. If you are voting for Kerry, can I ask why? Don't tell me all about why you think Bush sucks, I want you to tell me why you are voting for Kerry not why you are voting against Bush. Kerry says nothing but feel good stuff like "If you don't have a job, I'll get you one" and "If you are poor, I make you less broke" etc.. Well who the hell said it's somehow bushes fault or any presidents fault why people don't have jobs. Maybe they need to get off their butts and go find one instead of blaming the president. I always had a job when everyone else sat around and complained about it.. Go get one! If you can't find one where you live, move! If you can't find one that's up to your standards, too bad join the club! Stop whining about Bush being the cause of all your problems and get off your butt and do something about your problems. Can't get a job, go mow lawns, paint street numbers on curbs, learn to sell (sales people can always find work), get creative and make something you can sell at the flea market to make a buck, teach yourself a new skill, look around your community and see what's needed and find a way to create a little home based business that can provide it (it can be done with little or no startup money), go to a business and convince them that they should hire you to do a job that you made up which is a position they need within their business (the position will bring in more money for their business than what they will pay you) and that they can not afford not too hire you since. Man! Am I the only one in history to think of these sorts of things? I can't imagine.. Come on with all the "The only way out for us hispanics is goverment jobs", not sure who said that but I know I read it earlier on this forum and I think it was a pitiful display or the whole "Poor me, I have a disadvantage and can't do anything for myself but make excuses" syndrome.

Sorry, I am sure I just alienated half of my friends here on the forum but I hope you see it as reality and constructive criticism and not flaming insults. Of course I was speaking in general terms not to anyone in particular.

Rant over, really!

eagle4ever

08-16-2004, 08:51 AM

i said it once and i'll say it again..... kerry? bush? a president is a president,,, they r all alcoholics,druggies and womanizers. so why sweat it. :ph34r: we need a president like RICHARD NIXON. :D

JorgedeTexas

08-16-2004, 07:16 PM

No body said that Goverment is the "Only way out for Hispanics." What I said was that "Government is a way out for many Hispanics." Well, instead of saying can get a job, try mowing lawns, etc. Why not say get a government job with the state, city, county, or federal. No I am not saying that being Hispanic is not something of shame of or stop thinking low for being one. You should be proud and there are many oportunities for Hispanics in the government field. If you read when Kelly AFB was in San Antonio, many Mexican-Americans improved there lives working there. The first generation of Mexican-Americans worked hard enough for their sons and daughters to go to college and become some body. Probably many are running the city or have a company. After WWII manty Hispanics started working for the government, but they were the first to see discrimination against them and they paved they way for us. Look in the 1970s Del Rio high schools were divided by race, Hipanics and blacks went to one school (San Felipe HS) and whites went to a brand new school. The races were divided by the railroad tracks. Look toward Crystal City, there was not one Hispanic cheerleader (back in the 70s or 60s), until they Hispanics students walded out of the campus to protest. Do not look down at yourself,

"I think it was a pitiful display or the whole "Poor me, I have a disadvantage and can't do anything for myself but make excuses" syndrome." We should not think this way, poor me I have a disadvantage." I ay take that advantage if its offered to you, because its for you and your family, to support them. Its better than being on welfare or mowing lawns. I know what hard work is, I was a migrant worker, I mowed lawns, but my parents pushed me to get a good job and they did want me to get a government job. I looked into it, and thats what I do now. So do not let others drag you down with their negative thinking.

How many of your family, relatives, or friends are working for the government? Some are doing very well, because thats what they wanted to have and give a better future for their sons and daughters.

I am not whining, I am trying to open many Eagle Passans eyes whether you are Hispanic or not.

mena

08-16-2004, 07:55 PM

I think you mean EDUCATION and HARD WORK is a way out not only for hispanics but, for all other ethnic groups, so when places like Kelly AFB goes away there is something else to fall back on.

:)

mena

08-16-2004, 08:12 PM

Oh I forgot one thing..welfare and mowing lawns are two very different categories. I see many lawn companies that are very successful and making more money than you think. I'm sure if you play your cards right it could pay more than a government job with hard work. It all depends where your passion is, ask Oprah's lawn contractor. :)

lightwav

08-16-2004, 08:36 PM

JorgedeTexas>>

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.. Government jobs a good when you can get one. I just don't want people to think that if they can't get a goverment job that life is over as they know it and there are no other avenues to persue that can bring a decent income and respect to ones life.

Understand that:

1- Goverment jobs are great, nothing against them
2- Mowing lawns and anything else someone does to make money honestly instead of stealing it from others or selling dope is an honest living. Anyone that earns an honest living (key words are EARN and HONEST) should hold their head high no matter what people say or how much they earn etc.

I really just don't want people to be closed minded and decide that they should sit back and collect welfare etc. because that almighty governement job that Mom and Dad built up so much in your mind has not come along.

See, mowing lawns, goverment jobs or whatever gets you a paycheck is more respectable than sitting around making excuses and collecting welfare off those that do work for a living.

I can see that it may be tough for some because the way things are wired in the US, you get treated much better and given much more if you don't work a day in your life. If on the other hand you bust your butt your whole life it's a pretty sure thing that you will have little to eat and no way to even get medical care at least some where along your journey to better days.

I could go on here, but I won't :) Really.. :D

kurtmasur

08-17-2004, 02:22 AM

Lightwav, Skull & Bones is not some simple college fraternity. That's what they would like us to think. The students who are currently in Skull & Bones (e.g. those who actually meet in the secret building at Yale) are virtually powerless. The real power lies among those Yale ALUMNI from Skull & Bones, which form and sustain their network of power long after they graduate. They give each other powerful positions. In the end it's all politics. We're from Eagle Pass, we should know better. It's not what you know, but who you know. If you believe otherwise, then you're naive.

Because a person goes to Yale doesn't mean that he/she is bright. Unfortunately many of these private IVY schools accept students that come from a family with strong ties to the school--those familes which are huge donors of money to the university. An example, the Bushes, with W having been an undeserving student there. If you believe it's all about merit, then you're naive.

Anybody who blindly trusts the Bush administration is also naive. But it's not your fault. You probably learned to trust Bush based on what you see and hear from major news networks like CNN, Fox News, New York Times etc. These networks only cover up the lies of the Bush administration. These networks DECIDE what news you see and what news you DON'T see. These networks are owned by the same wealthy billionaires that enjoy protection from Bush's policies. It would be a conflict of interest to report against the mouth that feeds you, wouldn't it?

Thanks to the clever cover-ups between the government and the mainstream media, we as a population have been subject to brainwash. The government would have you believe that it all happened according to what we see in the mainstream media. But since we have no other choice but to watch American news networks and newspapers, they feed us all the news the government wants us to see under the assumption that we will never find out the real truth.

An obvious example are the socialist countries like Cuba and North Korea. Their citizens only get to see the government-approved news networks provided to them. Since the citizens don't know any better, they have no choice but to believe what they see on their tv. It's the same in the USA. We Americans are too tired and busy to find the time to corroborate the facts of the news reports fed to us. So it's just easy to accept and believe what we see on CNN and Fox News and their "polls".

May the whores of the blind become blind. --anonymous philosopher

eagle4ever

08-17-2004, 08:08 AM

Re-elect Richard Nixon !!

lightwav

08-17-2004, 08:10 AM

>>
Lightwav, Skull & Bones is not some simple college fraternity. That's what they would like us to think. The students who are currently in Skull & Bones (e.g. those who actually meet in the secret building at Yale) are virtually powerless. The real power lies among those Yale ALUMNI from Skull & Bones, which form and sustain their network of power long after they graduate. They give each other powerful positions. In the end it's all politics. We're from Eagle Pass, we should know better. It's not what you know, but who you know. If you believe otherwise, then you're naive.
>>

Who cares? It's nothing more than a group of people getting together and deciding to take care of each other as they get older. It's the same thing as the "Good old boy" network in any small town. If you don't know the right people you will have a much tougher time getting anything done. A smart person realizes this and gets to know the right people, others will just sit around and complain about being outside the loop and getting the bad end of the stick. It's just the way the world works, if you know this then play the game. It's not a matter of the game being fair or not, just play it or don't. There is a chance that one could change the game by making enough noise and this is a good thing but.. There is a price to pay for trying to change the game and or for not playing it..

Once again, I think this Skull and Bones thing is just silly. Did you ever listen to heavy metal when you were younger? I did and till this day I still don't eat bats or worship satan. So what if they agree to help each other out as they move forward in life? Fact is, this happens anyhow amongst the rich and powerful regardless of where it was decided. The rich and powerful will make aliances with or without skull and bones and if you can't see that then you are also naive (to use your words). :blink:

>>
Because a person goes to Yale doesn't mean that he/she is bright. Unfortunately many of these private IVY schools accept students that come from a family with strong ties to the school--those familes which are huge donors of money to the university. An example, the Bushes, with W having been an undeserving student there. If you believe it's all about merit, then you're naive.
>>

I assume you are not directing this paragraph at me since I don't remember saying being at Yale had anything to do with Merit. Although I believe some people are there because they are brains, I also stated above that many people are there due to their families power, connections and money.

>>
Anybody who blindly trusts the Bush administration is also naive. But it's not your fault. You probably learned to trust Bush based on what you see and hear from major news networks like CNN, Fox News, New York Times etc. These networks only cover up the lies of the Bush administration. These networks DECIDE what news you see and what news you DON'T see. These networks are owned by the same wealthy billionaires that enjoy protection from Bush's policies. It would be a conflict of interest to report against the mouth that feeds you, wouldn't it?

Thanks to the clever cover-ups between the government and the mainstream media, we as a population have been subject to brainwash. The government would have you believe that it all happened according to what we see in the mainstream media. But since we have no other choice but to watch American news networks and newspapers, they feed us all the news the government wants us to see under the assumption that we will never find out the real truth.

An obvious example are the socialist countries like Cuba and North Korea. Their citizens only get to see the government-approved news networks provided to them. Since the citizens don't know any better, they have no choice but to believe what they see on their tv. It's the same in the USA. We Americans are too tired and busy to find the time to corroborate the facts of the news reports fed to us. So it's just easy to accept and believe what we see on CNN and Fox News and their "polls".

May the whores of the blind become blind. --anonymous philosopher
>>

You must be joking here! :P How is it that you could live in the US for more than like 5 minutes and not know that the mainstream media in the US as well as Hollywood is EXTREMELY liberal and leans, no wait LIVES on the democrat side of the universe.

Come on.. Just turn on the news for 5 minutes and it's clear to see that Bush or the republicans RARELY get a break. Everything is always bias and in favor of the democratic party. With all due respect this has to be the least accurate thing I have heard all week.

kurtmasur

08-17-2004, 11:23 AM

Fine, Lightwav. Think what you want. I can only do so much. If it makes you comfortable to rely only on the news from mainstream media sources, then by all means continue learning the news from them.

Anyways, IMHO a true impartial news network would report the WHOLE picture. Isn't it sad that we have had to learn from Michael Moore that Bush wasted crucial minutes at the elementary school during the 9/11 crisis? This was never reported in the mainstream news, yet, the video that proves this always existed this whole time. (For the record, I DON'T agree with many parts of Michael Moore's 911 documentary). And also for the record, I congratulate CBS news for calling to our attention the photos of the prison abuse scandal, which was very brave of them. CBS was also brave enough to have made a special news report on Skull & Bones.

And Fox News also did a news report on how Israel has our entire telecommunication system hijacked in order to tap in on America's phone calls as they wish. Unfortunately, Fox News had to mysteriously delete that news report from their website, just days after it had aired. They always keep news reports for years online, but this Israel spying report only survived a handful of days online on Fox New's website. How funny.

If you go to my "Vote for Bush" posts, you will find links to the cached version of this Fox News report.

Speaking of which, I don't believe that Skull & Bones are the ONLY network of power behind our government. If you read the Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring in our country, you will see how Israel has hijacked our government through blackmail. In reality, our US government is run from Israel. Our government supports Israel in absolutely EVERYTHING. Just tell me which other foreign country gets our FULL 100% support? There isn't one. No other country in the world gets so much attention from us than Israel.

And finally, if the mainstream media is democratic, then what is Bill O'Reilly doing in Fox News?

lightwav

09-04-2004, 11:46 PM

Yes Michael Moore, what an American hero!

Please.. :P :rolleyes:

Another example of why we need Bush in office and why America's military should be kicking all the Arse they can is what happen in Russia at the hands of yet more muslim extremist. Remember, people that would kill over 300 innocent people half of them children need anything but negotiation. These people need their arse kicked plain and simple. After 9-11 I don't think we need the permission of the UN or any other sissy country to go do what needs to be done. Nobody else will do it as usual so it's up to the US!

We negotiated for years and what that got us was 9-11 and a lot of dead innocent Americans. So is it your opinion that we should have continued to negotiate with those in the middle east? You mean 10 years or so of it wasn't enough?

The pictures of the prisoners with underwear on their heads? Big deal! How about some pictures of those dead and burnt from 9-11. How about pictures of those that jumped out of the towers to their deaths? Call me what you want but I could give a ratts behind about some craphead with underwear on his head who was a criminal and was in jail in the first place.

Give me a break, you think exposing those pictures was good for our country? It only made the job of our military over their that much worse and probably cost many families of American soldiers to lose their husbands and fathers etc. do to the uprisings and additional unrest it caused over there.

I am not saying that it's a good thing for prisoners of war to be abused I am just saying it was idiotic for it to be made public at the time it was. End result is, it probably cost some little 5 year old girl in Ohio to sit through her fathers funeral and grow up without a Dad. You think that's a good thing just for the sake of protecting the very people that would blow you up if they had the chance just because you are not muslim (I am assuming you are not).

I could go on but I won't..

lightwav

09-05-2004, 12:04 AM

>>
Michael Moore that Bush wasted crucial minutes at the elementary school during the 9/11 crisis?
>>

Do you suggest a real leader should freak out in front of School children and start making rash decisions in a time of chrisis? I think someone who takes a few minutes to make the RIGHT decisions in a time like that is far superior to someone who freaks out and makes decisions based on pure emotions and the heat of the moment.

If any of you think that Kerry does anything but what will get him votes, you are sadly mistaken.

Fact is, a real leader will upset people off because he makes real decisions. Someone like Kerry or our old buddy Clinton makes decisions based on poles and what makes him popular at the moment.

I believe that Bush has taken our country through one of the toughest times in American history and done a fantastic job. I can't believe there are people out there that dare get down on him about the economy. He was handed an economy that was already going in the crapper. Look at the numbers at the time he took over! It's all there in the numbers, it's not fictional. To top it off shortly after taking over 9-11 happen which had just a little to do with our economy going in the crapper, ya think?

Bad economy? Hell, I am one that is happy to be alive after 911 instead of dead from some terrorist attack. Now how are any of you or me for that matter to know that the things Bush and our military have done are not the reason you are still alive today? Don't think so, well do you think all those people in the twin towers thought they would die at the hands of terrorist lunatics that day? They would have said "Yeah, whatever" if anyone told them so.

So think about it... You really think the economy is more important than being alive? You really think Bush or any president for that matter really controls how many jobs are available on a day to day basis? You really think Bush made the economy go in the crapper? Come on..

Lastly, when I ask people why they plan to vote for Kerry all I seem to hear is "Because he isn't bush". Come on, you have to vote for the man for some reason other than because he isn't Bush.

Don't get all wrapped up in voting for who you and your friends are voting for.. Look at the facts, think about it hard.. It's an important decision.. As my friend from above (the earlier postings) mentioned, don't just listen to the mainstream media (I don't contrary to what he thinks). Look at all the facts and think about everything thing, listen to both sides of the argument. Don't just vote for who your parents and family vote for, this is YOUR vote. Don't vote for Kerry because you think him and the democrats represent the poor people of America.. None of these politicians represent the poor people in my opinion. After all, Kerry and his wife are one of the richest couples in the country and probably the world. John Edwards is a trial lawyer who made his millions on lawsuits.. You think either one of these guys represent the poor or common man or even care two bits about them.. Come on.. :rolleyes:

eagle4ever

09-05-2004, 10:43 AM

May the best man win!

lightwav

09-05-2004, 12:43 PM

Furthermore, Kerry said in his own words that knowing what he knows today he would have also gone into Iraq.. Yet he still stands by and criticizes Bush for taking action because the fact is nobody likes war and he figures it will get him votes from people that just don't get it. War is essential sometimes regardless of who likes it and who doesn't. It's usually the same people that complain about taking action that would complain loudly that Bush didn't do enough, if one of their loved ones were lost at the hands of these muslim whack jobs. I guess as long as it doesn't affect some people it just never hits home enough to make sense.

Makes sense to me, it's a simple formula.

Dead Americans is a bad thing, it doesn't have to be my brother, sister uncle child or spouse for it to hit home for me. I can just hear the words 9-11 and that's enough for me because unlike many in this country I remember that day like it was yesterday. Others HAVE forgot because it just did sink in, so now they are on to complaining about all the stuff they always did even before Bush was president. I have said it before and I'll say it again, if you don't have a job and your life sucks then get off your butt and make it better! Sitting around arm chair quarter backing our president or anyone else for that matter will not make your life or your economical situation better. Has it worked so far for you? See, I rest my case.. Now I am not directing this at the particular person I am debating at the moment, just directing at those in general that have these attitudes.

When it's all said and done we are all American's and we are fighting the wrong enemy here (ourselves). I will be happy when the election is over and we can all be Americans for a few days at least instead of for or against one candidate or the other. :D

lightwav

09-05-2004, 12:45 PM

Somebody help me, I can't stop writing!

Ahhhh!!!

I tend to get my frustrations with this campaign out on this board, for this I apologize :(

But!! That does not make my opinions bad or incorrect, I am just sorry I go on and on and on. :unsure:

eagle4ever

09-05-2004, 02:38 PM

hey LW... afterall it is YOUR forum.... rant and rave all u want. I'm not into politics... but reading the postings is good. Keep 'em cuming!

lightwav

09-06-2004, 08:58 AM

Yeah but I try to be as much like a member as I can, I try not to give myself any special treatment on the forum :)

There was a time when I wasn't very political as well. Problem is I can't stand all the blindness out there. People vote for whoever their friends and family vote for just because that's the only side they have been hearing their whole life. Other big reason people vote democrat is because they think somehow it's the party that represents the poor man or the common man and the the republican party represents only rich white people. Very simple minded...

Besides the party system is for the most part only a portion of it.

Although I lean more to the republican side (as if you didn't notice), I would always vote for the best man/woman for the job regardless of party affiliation.

Now I don't consider myself tied to the republican party, I do consider myself about as far from the ideals of the democratic party as it gets. Simply put, the democratic party prays on those that fall into their trap of thinking that they represent them because they don't fall into the rich/white category. Guess what, most people in this country are not rich people, but most politicians are even if they are democrats. People that want to sit around and whine about life stinking and not doing anything about it love to hear from the democrats how they will somehow have all their problems fixed by govermental policies or new handout programs. Handouts only weaken people instead of strengthening them. Fact is, the republican party stands up most times and says what is correct and needs to be done but not exactly what most people want to hear kind of like a parent. The democratic party usually acts as more of a friend that sort of promises you or gives you the things you want but are clearly bad for you.

So, think about it.. When you are young you think your parents don't have a clue and couldn't possibly know what's good for you. But when you wake up and get a little older, smarter and more experienced and after you think about it a little you figure out that many of the things your parents said were actually right on.

At some point, many democrats wake up and start listening to what is good for them instead of just what sounds good at the moment.

Like drugs, they can be fun I suppose in the short term but in the long term they will ruin you.

kurtmasur

09-07-2004, 11:28 AM

Lightwav, you are the classic example of somebody who is brainwashed from the government and maistream media. But it's not your fault, man.

I've NEVER said that Michael Moore was an "American hero". I repeat again, I DO NOT agree with many things that are in his video, especially his own personal views.

Yes, I am glad that the photos of the prison abuse scandal were made public to the world. That it would have been harmful to our Army? Well they should have thought twice before they tortured them prisoners. I've always thought that we as America were a unique country because we always HUMANELY treated our enemy prisoners of war. But I was so disappointed and disillisioned with America that it was capable of getting to the low level of the rest of the countries that DO torture any prisoners they have locked up. Saddam Hussien's regime tortured many prisoners in that one prison, and it didn't matter that Hussein was captured, because the legacy of the tortures continued with us.

That the photos would have caused soldiers lose their lives? Well, lightwav, that's just one of the consequences of fighting a WAR. It's been many months since the abuse scandal, and we are still losing lives out there, it doesn't matter if there ever was an abuse scandal or not. If you really care about some little American girl's father's life in Iraq, then there shouldn't have been a war in the first place!

lightwav

09-07-2004, 11:36 AM

Oh boy! Do I have some responses for you :P

I am in the middle of my work day so I will have to wait until later but I assure you a response is in order. Oh man is one in order...

<_<

lightwav

09-07-2004, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by kurtmasur@Sep 7 2004, 12:28 PM
Lightwav, you are the classic example of somebody who is brainwashed from the government and maistream media. But it's not your fault, man.

I've NEVER said that Michael Moore was an "American hero". I repeat again, I DO NOT agree with many things that are in his video, especially his own personal views.

Yes, I am glad that the photos of the prison abuse scandal were made public to the world. That it would have been harmful to our Army? Well they should have thought twice before they tortured them prisoners. I've always thought that we as America were a unique country because we always HUMANELY treated our enemy prisoners of war. But I was so disappointed and disillisioned with America that it was capable of getting to the low level of the rest of the countries that DO torture any prisoners they have locked up. Saddam Hussien's regime tortured many prisoners in that one prison, and it didn't matter that Hussein was captured, because the legacy of the tortures continued with us.

That the photos would have caused soldiers lose their lives? Well, lightwav, that's just one of the consequences of fighting a WAR. It's been many months since the abuse scandal, and we are still losing lives out there, it doesn't matter if there ever was an abuse scandal or not. If you really care about some little American girl's father's life in Iraq, then there shouldn't have been a war in the first place!

Lightwav, you are the classic example of somebody who is brainwashed from the government and maistream media. But it's not your fault, man.

Thanks for your compassion regarding my apparent condition :D

I've NEVER said that Michael Moore was an "American hero".

And... I never said you said he was.. (this is getting silly sounding)

I repeat again, I DO NOT agree with many things that are in his video, especially his own personal views.

Wow, thanks for clearing that up I thought maybe you were parading him around like most Kerry supporters are these days.

Yes, I am glad that the photos of the prison abuse scandal were made public to the world. That it would have been harmful to our Army? Well they should have thought twice before they tortured them prisoners.

OK so then let me get this straight.. It's your position then that every man and woman engaged in combat in Iraq at that time and now should pay for the actions of a few idiots that also happened to be in the Military? So if I were to be deployed next week and got killed by some Iraqi you was all hiped up over this then somehow it would be my own fault? I realize that things happening now may or may not be in direct relation to the picture scandal but.. If you think for a minute that this mess did not help to make it all worse then you are sadly mistaken. See the problem is not that a few bad apples would be killed or punished it's that a few bad apples made it more difficult and more dangerous for the majority of our troops over there who ARE good people doing a fine job and risking their lives. How can you lump our whole military into what a few bad apples did? Don't you see my point here? I mean let's disagree but let's also be realistic.

I've always thought that we as America were a unique country because we always HUMANELY treated our enemy prisoners of war.

Well we are but do you think that maybe just maybe WAR sucks and wares on peoples mental state and judgement? Do you think that maybe, just maybe there is a such thing as a few bad apples within a group of good, brave, hard working people? Come on! I had this argument on the other side of the coin regarding the Muslim religion so I know that people love to stand up and tell me not to stereo type groups even when they deserve it. So, now here I am asking you not to stereo type our military which is outrageous anyhow. How is it that I would have to explain to any American that as a whole and at least 99% of the good men and woman in our military are good people?

But I was so disappointed and disillisioned with America that it was capable of getting to the low level of the rest of the countries that DO torture any prisoners they have locked up.

I am offended a bit when you refer to a few dill cheeses within our military as "America". This is not America! Was it America when some Muslim idiot within our own military rolled grenades under a tent of his own solders? No it was not! Should we have said at that moment that US solders make it a happen in general to try to kill their fellow soldiers while they are in a mess tent eating? No.. I don't torture people and I am AMERICAN! So don't lump me and my fellow Americans into this same pile as these people who did wrong.

Saddam Hussien's regime tortured many prisoners in that one prison, and it didn't matter that Hussein was captured, because the legacy of the tortures continued with us.

OK so you are serious here then? You think what our Military has done is worse than what Sadaam has done for years? So it's your opinion that the Iraqi people were in better hands with Sadaam? It sure seems to me that this is what you are saying. Why don't you just spit on the graves of all our soldiers who died over there for the cause. After all in your opinion they died for nothing, that sucks I have to say.

That the photos would have caused soldiers lose their lives? Well, lightwav, that's just one of the consequences of fighting a WAR.

Ok so once again I will try to clarify your postion.. Let me get this straight.. You think that our soldiers losing their lives is just one of the consequences of fighting a war but.. You also think that what happens to Iraqi prisoners is something we should go into great detail about. I don't get it, to me it almost sounds like you value the Iraqi prisoners dignity more than you value our American soldiers lives. Did I get this straight? Correct me if I am wrong here..

It's been many months since the abuse scandal, and we are still losing lives out there, it doesn't matter if there ever was an abuse scandal or not.

Yeah so then it's not logical to think that this made it worse?

If you really care about some little American girl's father's life in Iraq, then there shouldn't have been a war in the first place!

First, don't question if I care about the little girl! I do, I am human.. Only scum would not..

We are already there, right or wrong.. So now the question is how do we move on, I don't think once our troops are in harms way they should have anything but support from the very people they are risking their lives to protect!

Do anything that's neccessary, hide photos (until it's over) whatever, just do what is needed to keep them safe within reason. If you were over their I know you would appreciate the same, no?

I am not really arguing the fact that they should have been shown or if what those bozos did was right or wrong. Clearly we should not be harming anyone anymore than is neccessary, not that we would get the same courtesy (but that's what makes us better). My argument is that the timing of releasing these pictures did nothing but put our good men and woman over there at more risk and for no fault of their own. Oh and I forgot, they helped make the Bush administration look bad and lined a few reporters pockets and maybe got some news networks ratings up.

I ask you this... How did releasing those pictures help anyone? Maybe deterred it from happening again in the future but the same could have been accomplished if they were released at a later time and without putting our troops in harms way.

kurtmasur

09-07-2004, 12:20 PM

About Bush not doing anything when he first learned about the 2ND tower (not the 1st, but 2ND tower) at the elementary school is what makes things fishy.

Assuming that the 9/11 attacks were indeed a surprise, there was no way for Bush to know which were the terrorist's targets. As President, he shouldn't have taken the chances to continue reading about the pet goat. He should have assumed that HE himself was a target and that the terrorists would be coming after him soon. In fact, the Secret Service should have taken our President to a hidden safe spot, considering that we were under attack. That's their job, and it's what they get paid for, to PROTECT OUR PRESIDENT--children and public appearances be damned!

But the Secret Service didn't act, nor did our President. Everybody remained calm--too calm. Bush didn't seem surprised at all upon learning what was happening. This only proves that the "ATTACKS" were already planned, and that when Bush learned about the 2ND tower, he was simply being delivered a progress report about the malicious plan.

kurtmasur

09-07-2004, 01:01 PM

Look, lightwav, those few soldiers who actually did the tortures were only instruments. Contrary to what the government says, those soldiers did receive orders from the highest levels. Bush himself has indirectly justified the use of torture (by the US forces) in a White House press conference a few months back. Of course in covering this press conference, the mainstream media conveniently left out this part of the press conference:

Q Mr. President, I wanted to return to the question of torture. What we've learned from these memos this week is that the Department of Justice lawyers and the Pentagon lawyers have essentially worked out a way that U.S. officials can torture detainees without running afoul of the law. So when you say that you want the U.S. to adhere to international and U.S. laws, that's not very comforting. This is a moral question: Is torture ever justified?

THE PRESIDENT: Look, I'm going to say it one more time. If I -- maybe -- maybe I can be more clear. The instructions went out to our people to adhere to law. That ought to comfort you. We're a nation of law. We adhere to laws. We have laws on the books. You might look at those laws, and that might provide comfort for you. And those were the instructions out of -- from me to the government

You may find a FULL transcript of the press conference in question at
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0040610-36.html (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/06/20040610-36.html)

You can even read the government memo mentioned in the above quote in pdf format by clicking on the following link: (the memo is long)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5166951/site/n.../site/newsweek/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5166951/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/)

Lightwav, if after reading through these linked materials you still believe that the torture was the work of only a "few bad soldiers", then there is nothing else I can do.

lightwav

09-07-2004, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by kurtmasur@Sep 7 2004, 01:20 PM
About Bush not doing anything when he first learned about the 2ND tower (not the 1st, but 2ND tower) at the elementary school is what makes things fishy.

Assuming that the 9/11 attacks were indeed a surprise, there was no way for Bush to know which were the terrorist's targets. As President, he shouldn't have taken the chances to continue reading about the pet goat. He should have assumed that HE himself was a target and that the terrorists would be coming after him soon. In fact, the Secret Service should have taken our President to a hidden safe spot, considering that we were under attack. That's their job, and it's what they get paid for, to PROTECT OUR PRESIDENT--children and public appearances be damned!

But the Secret Service didn't act, nor did our President. Everybody remained calm--too calm. Bush didn't seem surprised at all upon learning what was happening. This only proves that the "ATTACKS" were already planned, and that when Bush learned about the 2ND tower, he was simply being delivered a progress report about the malicious plan.

This is Typical of almost all liberal people I have any sort of conversation with..

1- You made some comments.

2- I responded in detail and followed up with questions for you.

3- You changed the subject to something completely different instead of answering my questions and staying in the conversation.

How can you make baseless comments as you did then just change the subject when i show you how they were wrong?

As for your theory on 9-11 not being a surprise to the administration. With all due respect I think you are in the wrong forum for that, I think the site is xfiles.com or everythingisagovernmentconspiracy.com.

Give me a break, you actually think it was anything but a surprise? Come on..

I have said this before in response to this same topic in another post you made. I would much rather have a president that takes his time to make the right decision in an important time like that than someone who goes nuts like an emotional whacko, scares the kids and makes rash decisions which could harm us all. Furthermore, let's remember that the man is president but he is also human. Can you imagine what he felt or any human would have felt when being told that we were under attack?

kurtmasur

09-08-2004, 12:55 AM

Lightwav, I have not changed the topic at all. We were originally discussing the use of torture by our military. And I followed up with my post dated Sep 7 2004, 02:01 PM, which you have apparantly overlooked.

Immediately before that post, however, I had posted one (back-to-back to the 2:01 PM one) on Sep 7 2004, 01:20 PM, about Bush in the Florida classroom.

And about me being liberal, no, I am not some radical left wing nut-jab. In general I am at the centre-left with a few right-ist tendencies. I've discussed my own personal political beliefs in the "Vote for Bush" forum, in case you haven't read them.

So you're labeling my theory on 9/11 as just "another one of those conspiracy theories"? Well, regardless of who planned 9/11 (whether "Islamic terrorists" or the US govt), it was a conspiracy against us, the United States of America, wouldn't you agree?

Anywho, I don't like the term "conspiracy theory" because we have sadly been conditioned into automatically dismissing such explanations as "silly".

And why I am posting what I post on these forums? Because as a concerned citizen, it is a duty to expose the lies that have been fed to us by the government and the mainstream media.

lightwav

09-08-2004, 07:39 AM

You may have stayed on topic but certainly not in the conversation.

You said things, I responded you went on to something other than we were both writing about immediately before.

I have to say, it's tough to have a serious conversation with you or anyone who actually thinks 9-11 was "planned by the US Government". Although I would like to give everyone the respect they deserve, your comments on 9-11 are nothing short of comical.

As for you claiming to be left or right or in the middle. You can claim to be what you want but your opinions are clearly as far left as it gets. So, let's just say that you are not on the left but your opinions and writings here ARE clearly on the left. The first sign of recovery is admitting you have a problem :P

lightwav

09-08-2004, 07:42 AM

I will add briefly that none of my comments here are personal attacks on anyone on the forum. I am just very passionate about politics regarding this presidential race and my writing tends to reflect that.

I hope that we can all debate these issues or any other and still sit down for coffee and have a laugh or two someday. ;)

eagle4ever

09-08-2004, 11:50 AM

George Bush has a heart attack and dies. He goes to hell where the devil is waiting for him. "I don't know what to do here," says the devil.

"You're on my list but I have no room for you, but you definitely have to stay here, so I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I've got 3 people here who weren't quite as bad as you. I'll let one of them go, but you have to take their place.

I'll even let YOU decide who leaves."

George thought that sounded pretty good, so he agreed. The devil opened the first room. In it was Richard Nixon and a large pool of water. He kept diving in and surfacing empty handed over and over and over. Such was his fate in hell. "No!" George said. "I don't think so. I'm not a good swimmer and don't think I could do that all day long."

The devil led him to the next room. In it was Tony Blair with a sledgehammer and a room full of rocks. All he did was swing that hammer, time after time after time. "No! I've got this problem with my shoulder. I would be in constant agony if all I could do was break rocks all day!" commented George.

The devil opened a third door. In it, George saw Bill Clinton lying naked on the floor with his arms staked over his head and his legs staked in spread eagle pose. Bent over him was Monica Lewinsky, doing what she does best.

George Bush looked at this in disbelief for a while and finally said, "Yeah, I can handle this.

"The devil smiled and said.... "Monica, you're free to go!!

eagle4ever

09-08-2004, 11:53 AM

again,, this is just a joke... im neither for nor against any presidential elect

mena

09-08-2004, 12:02 PM

Lol...that was funny!!

mena

09-08-2004, 12:03 PM

Are you sure that was George and not Kerry. :o

kurtmasur

09-08-2004, 12:10 PM

Look, I am a person that likes to do his own research and learn the news as close as possible from the actual source. For example, when they show a recorded press conference of the President on CNN, I go to www.whitehouse.gov, and read the entire transcript to see if the networks left anything out intentionally, as is the case in my post below the broken line below.

That you as a citizen discover that the govt and media are deliberately concealing information has NOTHING to do with being liberal nor conservative. If you can actually connect the dots between the two, please enlighten me.

My main goal is to expose the lies of the Bush Administration and the mainstream media, in light of the upcoming elections.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, lightwav, those few soldiers who actually did the tortures were only instruments. Contrary to what the government says, those soldiers did receive orders from the highest levels. Bush himself has indirectly justified the use of torture (by the US forces) in a White House press conference a few months back. Of course in covering this press conference, the mainstream media conveniently left out this part of the press conference:

Q Mr. President, I wanted to return to the question of torture. What we've learned from these memos this week is that the Department of Justice lawyers and the Pentagon lawyers have essentially worked out a way that U.S. officials can torture detainees without running afoul of the law. So when you say that you want the U.S. to adhere to international and U.S. laws, that's not very comforting. This is a moral question: Is torture ever justified?

THE PRESIDENT: Look, I'm going to say it one more time. If I -- maybe -- maybe I can be more clear. The instructions went out to our people to adhere to law. That ought to comfort you. We're a nation of law. We adhere to laws. We have laws on the books. You might look at those laws, and that might provide comfort for you. And those were the instructions out of -- from me to the government

You may find a FULL transcript of the press conference in question at
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0040610-36.html (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/06/20040610-36.html)

You can even read the government memo mentioned in the above quote in pdf format by clicking on the following link: (the memo is long)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5166951/site/n.../site/newsweek/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5166951/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/)

Lightwav, if after reading through these linked materials you still believe that the torture was the work of only a "few bad soldiers", then there is nothing else I can do.

BlueCollar

09-08-2004, 12:14 PM

LOL eagle4, THAT! WAS FUNNY

mob_heir

09-12-2004, 08:59 AM

PRAISE THE NEW RELIGION OF THE WORLD: THE HATE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

BLAME ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BULLIED AROUND SO MANY COUNTRIES WITH WARS, BROKEN TREATIES, ARROGANT FOREIGN POLICIES, ETC.

EVEN IF YOU JUST GOT HERE FROM ALBANIA, CAMBODIA OR SOME SH*TTY 3-WORLD FOREIGN COUNTRY EXPECT TO GET THE EGG ON YOUR FACE FOR THE FAULTS PERFORMED BY NONE OTHER THAN THE MORONS(PALE AS SNOW WASPS) WHO FIRST GOT HERE RAPING AND PILAGING THE FIRST PEOPLES WHO OCCUPIED THIS COUNTRY HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE, RACIALLY DEPRESSED AND OPRESSED THE BLACKS AND CONTINUE TO POSE AS ANGELS FOR A CONTINUING RACIST(OR WHITE NATIONALIST(CITY ON THE HILL)) AGENDA.

THE VEHICLE THROUGH WHICH THESE MORONS CONTINUE TO MANIFEST THEIR WICKED INTERESTS IS THROUGH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. YOU GOTTA GIVE IT TO THESE MORONS IF THEY ARE ABLE TO TAME SOME OF YOU NONWHITES TO THEIR CAUSE(WITH A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF BLACKS, HISPANICS, ETC(NONWHITES) WHO ARE REPUBLICANS).

lightwav

09-12-2004, 09:59 AM

That just gives me a headache... Mostly because I just can't figure out what it is you are trying to say.. Sorry..

:unsure:

kurtmasur

09-17-2004, 01:05 AM

Don't mean to change the subject on this forum, but I thought the following article was appropiate:

Please Forgive Florida

After three hurricanes, I wonder what it is that Florida did that so offended all of nature? hmmmm... Whatever it is, I'm sorry.

"...since it seems that Florida has earned the wrath of god for some reason, I thought I'd check in with you," said an email from a faraway friend in the wake of Hurricane Frances – Fat Frannie, as I've come to call her. Not nice, but come on: her big mass covered the state like a parachute descending on a spoon. If it seems glib to joke about it, believe me, being in Florida right now demands either a sense of humor or tranquilizers the size of baguettes.

Remember that scene in Lord of the Rings when Christopher Lee says of the trees "Rip them all down," and down they go? That's what it looked like following Hurricane Charley. After a total of ten days without power between the two storms, we are punch drunk, tired, scared and far away from ourselves – even though, here in Orlando, we didn't even get the worst of it.

Last week, as Ivan whirled out there over the Caribbean, threatening to pound the state again, I started to wonder... what did Florida do that so offended all of nature?

Whatever it is, I'm sorry. If it will keep us out of danger, if it will placate the elements, if it will keep my hot water running, I'll apologize for Florida. To whomever or whatever we've offended, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry for all the Christmas cards you've ever gotten with a picture of Santa in a Hawaiian shirt and shades, looking like David Crosby. I'm sorry that you opened them after coming in from shoveling the driveway. I'm sorry for Disney World, where you felt compelled to bring your young children, a trip which cost more than your first car. I'm sorry that the loss of their binkie or their ba-ba on the monorail was worse to them than your creaking credit rating and and that they cried about it through half of one whole day while the adding machine whirred in your head. I hope you will forget the bad parts in a few years – your kids forgot them the next day. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry for Ponce de Leon's whole "Fountain of Youth" thing. It took the allure of time travel to get people to come here in the first place, if that tells you anything. Quite the opposite of youth, we are the world's greatest source of Old. I'm sorry you have to come here to visit your parents when you'd rather go to Belize or Ireland. I feel your pain. And I'm sorry for flying cockroaches, the word "parrothead" and people who drive on the beach. I won't apologize for Miami, a singular and magical place, but otherwise, here's a blank check of remorse...you fill in the "for" line and I'll honor it.

Oh yeah. And then there was that one election. You know the one. Nature seems to know it, too. I'd like to apologize to the universe for that humiliating cock-up. I will go in front of the cosmic parole board and repeat myself as many times as it takes to keep the remaining trees, and anything else, erect around here. Don't get me wrong: this election remorse isn't what a friend calls "a Nellie Olsen apology," reeking of insincerity and self-preservation. I can assure you it's genuine. I'm sorry I ever heard of Katherine Harris. How humiliating.

Now you see? In the time it took me to write this, Ivan is turning away. See? In showing remorse for this offense, the universe has been slightly appeased. As of now, the only part of Florida Ivan hit was the pandhandle, and I'll just babble on apologizing in private ("I'm sorry you had to read Hemingway in school," etc.), in hopes of saving that. I want the cosmic forces to know that despite appearances there are a lot of good people here, people who want to ensure that a "Florida election 2000" doesn't happen again. Besides, hurricane season doesn't end until after the political season does.

Tropical storm Jeanne in the Carribean is said to be heading to Florida as a hurricane in a few days time.
Liz Langley is a freelance writer who lives in Florida.

kurtmasur

09-22-2004, 02:11 AM

http://www.bartcop.com/message-from-God.gif

mob_heir

09-23-2004, 12:25 AM

Lets all just convert to freemasonry and we'll all be as successful as George Bush. (Save the foot powder to look white for later)

Rapunzel

09-26-2004, 08:53 PM

I voted for Kerry. Anyone but Bush. I think Bush and his advisors are dangerous liars.

If you want to go fight in a war, vote for Bush.

lightwav

09-26-2004, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Rapunzel@Sep 26 2004, 09:53 PM
I voted for Kerry. Anyone but Bush. I think Bush and his advisors are dangerous liars.

If you want to go fight in a war, vote for Bush.
If you want to fight in a war in your backyard instead of overseas then vote for Kerry.

If you want the UN and Europe to decide when we protect our country the vote for Kerry.

If you just loved the feeling you had on 9-11 then vote for a SISSY, no good flip floppin', French luvin', "I do and say whatever is popular at the moment" Kerry.

If you want to vote for someone who does and says what's popular instead of a man who is a real leader and does what he thinks is right regardless of what way the wind is blowing or what popular opinion is at the moment.. Vote for Kerry..

A true leader must stay the course even when it's not the most popular thing at the moment. A true leader will ruffle some feathers vs. a pure politician who will change course every time someone doesn't like it.

If you think a good reason to vote for someone is because he isn't the other guy then vote for Kerry!

I don't like any politician, they are all liars and cheats.. This is the nature of the business. It's always the lesser of two evils and all that.. Yada yada ya.. Point is, everything else about Bush could be terrible (which it's not) and bottom line is I think he is the only one with the guts enough to keep our country at least somewhat safe if there is any such thing these days which these whack jobs blowing themselves and everything else up in the name of some God who could only be Satan himself..

Face it, even if Bush has his problems.. Kerry has NOTHING to bring to the table AT ALL! He isn't Bush is a pretty sad reason to vote for him or anyone.

Funny how when you ask someone why they are voting for Bush they give you a list of reasons. On the other hand when you ask someone why they are voting for Kerry all they can say is because he isn't Bush or because he is FOR the poor..

Rapunzel

09-26-2004, 09:38 PM

Bush is tossing away money on an invasion and occupation of a country that had nothing to do with 9-11. NOTHING AT ALL. That means he is squandering money that could be used on securing the United States.

Bush is a bigger flip-flopper than Kerry could ever be.

I see you have bought the whole package.

I will vote for Kerry for several reasons. But his not being Bush is sufficient reason.

I can think of no reason to vote for Bush. He is a proven liar whose main goals are to help his rich friends get richer. Bush says one thing and does another.

And Bush isn't timid about violating the constitution.

Your remarks about Bush being the candidate with the guts to blah, blah blah is just a bunch of talk. Bush didn't have the guts to go to Vietnam. He is a draft-dodger who will send other people's kids to war.

lightwav

09-26-2004, 10:03 PM

I bought the whole package? If that's not the pot calling the kettle black.. Looks like you bought the whole package yourself.. :P

It's funny how democrats want to call Bush a draft dodger when he did at least something that resembled military service.. Now when Clinton who is an admitted REAL draft dodger none of the democrats wanted to talk about it. Interesting how that works.. All of a sudden the democrats have themselves a big war hero and everyone else is now a draft dodger. Kerry served like 4 months in combat didn't he? Then came back and bad mouthed the people he went over there with. Didn't he choose swift boat duty because there was MUCH less danger being on a boat at that time then on the ground in the jungle?

Look, I think anyone who served in any capacity should be recognized for it. Why does this whole campaign have to be about something that did or did not happen so long ago? How about looking at the last 20 years at least.. Fact is Kerry has been in the senate for a long time and has pretty much been useless. What makes anyone think he will be any less useless as president?

You folks that seem to think ANY politician isn't out to make their friends and themselves richer, need to smell the coffee.. They are all freakin crooks.. Once again, it's the lesser of two evils so why even talk about things like politicians having morals? They have none, they are all out for themselves and what they can do for those they know. Beyond local government most politicians had to make more promises than they could possibly fulfill in order to get elected! This in itself makes them all lying theiving cheats that will never truly represent the common man, rich or poor.

With all the battles aside, please think hard about one thing and one thing only. Who will you feel safer with in the Whitehouse next year? Everything else comes second.. IF you can truly look in the mirror and say that Kerry is your man then I think you should vote for him. But you realize that Bush is the better man to keep us all as safe as we can possibly be in these times then please don't forget that this is the most important issue this election. It's not the economy (although important) it's not jobs, it's not anything but us being alive! If we are dead and gone then none of the other stuff matters.

Rapunzel

09-26-2004, 10:13 PM

We were diverted from talking about Clinton's draft-dodging by all the discussion about his sex life. Sorry. It wasn't my preference, but we couldn't get beyond that sex thing. You know how Republicans are when it comes to sex. Talk, talk, talk.

I will feel safer with Kerry in the White House. I expect to be attacked if Bush remains in office.

There is a chance for a new president to set about straightening out our foreign policy that has a large part of the world not on our side in the war against terror. And it's not because they believe in terror or support the terrorists like Bush and his cronies claim. It's because they want to be treated with respect and not be bullied.

I am sick of being told that if I hold opposing views to the Bush administration that I am supporting terrorists. That is a horrible thing for a president to say. And it is the mark of a coward and a bully. He is a guy who cannot stand scrutiny or someone questioning him. It is our duty as citizens to question our leaders and hold them accountable.

I guess you could claim that all politicians are crooks and liars. But some are worse than others. I consider Bush to be the worst person to ever occupy the Oval Office.

I did not buy the whole package. There are things about Kerry that I don't like. But compared to Bush, he is wonderful.

Kerry did not "bad mouth" the people he served with. I suspect that you know that.

lightwav

09-26-2004, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Rapunzel@Sep 26 2004, 10:38 PM
Bush is tossing away money on an invasion and occupation of a country that had nothing to do with 9-11. NOTHING AT ALL. That means he is squandering money that could be used on securing the United States.
Maybe, maybe not.. Doesn't matter now, what matters is where we are today..

It's your opinion then that we should pull our troops out now regardless of what will happen when we do so?

Did you ever think it may not be such a bad thing to show the world that when you F with the US you will have to pay a price?

I don't 100% agree with the timing on Iraq but fact is we are there now..

Nobody seems to mention that Afganistan has come a long way since we started there. Iraq is bigger and needs more time money and work.

I hate all of this too but I don't think sitting around and waiting is the answer either.

I am not sure there is a good answer to be honest.. How do you truly stop people that are so twisted that they blow themselves up just to take some others with them? How do you stop people who are taught from the day they are born that they should kill anyone who does not believe in the same religion they do? How do you reason with people that will gladly take the lives of over 150 innocent children in the name of their God?

I don't know the answer and neither does anyone else, this is what is scarey as hell... I do know that being tough is the best chance we have.

You can't scare these people with death, they are twisted.. So what scares them? Humiliation!! This is the only thing I know that scares them but we are not allowed to use it.

These are scarey times and I hope whomever is elected they will make the right decisions to take us away from some of this. I am just babbling now, I will shut up. :unsure:

Rapunzel

09-26-2004, 10:27 PM

Did you ever think it may not be such a bad thing to show the world that when you F with the US you will have to pay a price?

Pay close attention. Iraq did NOT F with us. Why do we have to play along with the Bush administrations myth that Iraq was ever a threat to us? Baloney.

I am not sure that we can immediately withdraw our troops, but we can get a president who has the common sense and the respect to get other nations to join in a true coalition. The reason it would be difficult to withdraw immediately is that we made that mess over there and it would be unconscionable to just walk away from it. But Kerry is not talking about immediate withdrawal, anyway.

"Being tough" has made the world more dangerous. Things were bad for the people in Hussein's Iraq, but they were not bad for us. Back in those days, it was not Americans having their heads chopped off.

And don't start acting like invading Iraq was the compassionate thing to do. If that's the case, we need to invade a lot more countries, and it will never end.

We need to step back and ask ourselves what makes people be nutty terrorists. I think that's something that Republicans are unwilling to face.

What scares terrorists? Humiliation just gets them riled up. In fact, humiliation has that effect on about anyone.

We need to examine our policies. I think the answer lies there.

As for the babbling, there is nothing wrong with that. I think we are just brainstorming about what we think.

kurtmasur

09-28-2004, 02:14 AM

Bush took us into war based on lies. Over 10,000 innocent lives, both American and Iraqi combined have been lost--all because of a war based on lies.

Clinton was impeached because of a stained blue dress.

Why hasn't Bush been impeached?!

lightwav

09-28-2004, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by kurtmasur@Sep 28 2004, 03:14 AM
Bush took us into war based on lies. Over 10,000 innocent lives, both American and Iraqi combined have been lost--all because of a war based on lies.

Clinton was impeached because of a stained blue dress.

Why hasn't Bush been impeached?!
You already said this exact thing in another thread.

Are you cutting and pasting this from some political site?

lightwav

09-28-2004, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Rapunzel@Sep 26 2004, 11:27 PM
Pay close attention. Iraq did NOT F with us.
They didn't? What do you call the 10 plus years of spitting in our face and false promises to do what they siad they were going to do? Shooting at our planes in the no fly zone for years? Planning to assasinate an American president?

So listen carefully :) he did F with us and if you can't see that you need to only find some back issues of newspapers or do a search on Google.

Maybe we are getting our definitions of "F with us" a little confused. I think you mean that they were not threatening us with immediate physical harm. We don't know that really.. Don't you think that once he found a way to harm us he would have? You think there was lots of love for the US in Sadaam's mind?

It puzzles me that you still think sitting back and waiting for an attack is the best policy even after 9-11 showed us that it wasn't the way to do things. Tell me then, when should we go to War? When is a good time to sacrifice our soldiers and money? That's right, in your mind it's never.. So it doesn't matter how it all went down you and others like you would still be against it because it's war, it's bad and it's ugly. Nobody likes it but if you have one realistic bone in your body then you better thank your lucky stars that there are people out there in our military and administration over the years that don't think like you and understand that even though war stinks, it's needed at times.

You would have NONE of the freedoms or day to day security in your life if it weren't for many other wars in our history. As sad as it is, sometimes it takes the barrel of a gun to make things happen and make people pay attention. I don't like it either but it's the cold hard truth of it.

It's sort of like a bully beating up on a kid over and over and over. Thing is he never gets caught and the teachers and school officials can't do much because they never see it. So after months of this abuse the big brother shows up and beats the snot out of the bully, problem solved. It's not pretty but sometimes violence solves problems that can't be solved in other ways. If diplomacy breaks down between countries you only have so many options beyond that, one I sanctions and the other is military action.

sotexlhorn

09-28-2004, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by lightwav@Sep 26 2004, 11:15 PM

I don't 100% agree with the timing on Iraq but fact is we are there now..

It kind of seems like you're saying " oh well, too bad, we're there now"... and I agree that we can't completely pull out. It's too late for that. but by putting us in there to begin with, shouldn't that be reason enough to get rid of this guy?

It's like saying " oh yeah,we F'd up, so,what are you gonna do?"(although these guys would never admit to that)

BlueCollar

09-28-2004, 10:24 AM

I remember when president Bush said "either your with us or against us". It was clear that Iraq was harboring terrorists. Saddam was given the option to surrender his political power and leave the country or go to war. He chose war.
Like lightwav said, this country is where its at because of war. We dont tuk our tales and run away at the first sign of trouble. Death is sad, but sometimes necessary.

kurtmasur

09-28-2004, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by BlueCollar@Sep 28 2004, 11:24 AM
I remember when president Bush said "either your with us or against us". It was clear that Iraq was harboring terrorists. Saddam was given the option to surrender his political power and leave the country or go to war. He chose war.
Like lightwav said, this country is where its at because of war. We dont tuk our tales and run away at the first sign of trouble. Death is sad, but sometimes necessary.
Really? It was clear that Iraq was harboring terrorists? Please show me the proof. The 9/11 Commission, appointed by the President, could NOT find a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, nor to any terrorists for that matter. There was simply no evidence proving this.

On a different note, it sad noting that this great country of ours is becoming more and more like a communist country. That phrase, "either you're with us or against us" is not unlike that used by communist regimes--"if you're not with the party you are against us". You are denied admission to Bush events if you are not a Bush supporter. You are also not allowed to wear Anti-Bush t-shirts to these events. If they see you with one at a Bush event you get arrested (there's been many news reports on this happening). To be fair, I heard it's the same with attending Kerry events.

And no, lightwav, I did not get get the text from my previous post from some political site. They were my own original words, and I chose to post them on two threads on this site to make sure they got read. For that, I did do copy and paste :)

BlueCollar

09-28-2004, 12:40 PM

Thats just great now your saying we're Communists, LOL! The Phrase "with us or against us" was used in a sentence about fighting terrorism, I don't remember hearing this in any Republican Convention.
I suppose you were against WWII. So who cares about Pearl Harbor, huh?

kurtmasur

09-28-2004, 01:01 PM

I wasn't alive at the time of WWII, so I don't know much about the circumstances of the time. So I have no opinion concerning WWII. What I do think is that previously government classified information reveals that the US government knew very well in advance what was about to happen in Pearl Harbor... they should have done everything in their power to prevent that attack. Just recently the government elevated the status of those generals in charge at Pearl Harbor at the time to "honorable discharge", thereby recognizing that it was not those generals' fault.

Yes, that phrase "you're either with us or against us" was originally used by Bush to refer to the "war on terrorism" in relation to other countries. But it is clear how its use has been expanded to be used here in the homeland against our citizens. As I said before, our free speech has been limited after 9/11. It's no longer ok to protest the president in his face. If he makes a speech at some place, the Secret Service will make sure you are kept at least 1 mile away. You can only be a Bush supporter to attend a Bush speech in person. If by chance you manage to gain admission and you decide to disrupt his speech with a protest, the Secret Service will not only take you away from the room, they will arrest you and possibly file charges. Try doing this at a speech done by Fidel Castro in La Habana, and you get the exact same outcome.

sotexlhorn

09-28-2004, 01:41 PM

scratch that...

sotexlhorn

09-28-2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by BlueCollar@Sep 28 2004, 11:24 AM
. Saddam was given the option to surrender his political power and leave the country or go to war. He chose war
1. Of course Saddam is going to choose war, which verifies my feelings that this guy is no saint. This guy has a huge ego...it's like when men call each other j*tos when one of them doesnt want to drink beer anymore. You know after that, they're gonna end up grabbing another beer.

2.Could it be perhaps that he did not have any wmd's?

Who knows, maybe this war was inevitable. But was this war started prematurely? Did we finish up in Afghanistan first? You also need to ask why...why did we or didnt we..

BlueCollar

09-28-2004, 04:06 PM

When was the last time you saw a protest that didn't have violence as an outcome. Is that what you're getting at. You want go organize a protest at a presidential speech site and start a riot. hahahah!

kurtmasur

09-29-2004, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by BlueCollar@Sep 28 2004, 05:06 PM
When was the last time you saw a protest that didn't have violence as an outcome. Is that what you're getting at. You want go organize a protest at a presidential speech site and start a riot. hahahah!
Ok, perhaps I haven't expressed my message concisely. My point is that I want to exercise my free speech right and be able to wear an anti-Bush t-shirt at a Bush event. I would also like to attend one of Bush's speeches showing an anti-Bush sign. This is all I am asking for. I am not interested in making a scene at such events much less start a riot.

However it so happens that you are denied admission to Bush events if you are not a Bush supporter. And if you do end up entering such events and you let it be known that you are anti-Bush (say, through a protest sign), then you will be booted from the audience and/or have your sign confiscated and/or arrested. All of these possibilities have happened to real citizens, especially during this campaign season, and it just angers me how our constitution is being foresaken. Just read the news (both mainstream and non) and see for yourselves.

lightwav

09-29-2004, 01:05 AM

Yes kurtmasur, I can see how you being such an American and true Patriot (cough cough) would be so terribly shaken by our consitution being violated.

You and people like you are easy to figure out.. You want all the freedoms and pleasures of being an American but you are not willing to stand up and fight for it! You want all the good with none of the sacrifice that comes with it! Sorry but this is clearly how you think, it's apparent in the things you say on this very forum.

You and those like you are quick to complain about some civil liberty that you feel you were cheated out of but do nothing for our country which gave you these rights! In fact all you do is spit in the face of America over and over with your negative comments about our country, our efforts abroad, our leader and so on. Since our American men and woman are risking their lives to make sure you have a cushy safe life I think you should be standing behind them, our president and our country. Vote for Kerry if you want, that's OK but stop slamming everything that our country stands for over and over and everything we do abroad every step of the way. If you hate everything about this country then Mexico is real close, Viva Mexico! Enjoy! See ya! Don't let the door hitcha!

Yes it's a American to speak up for what you think is right but it's a totally different thing to be against anything and everything that we do and stand for. Don't act like you don't know what I mean, just go read all of your own post.

Sigh.. It's sad, I wish some people would just wake up and read a little America history. Figure out what this country stands for and how it came to be.

Be a proud American for just a day brutha! It's OK, you can hate it again tomorrow. Just for one day try having a little pride in your country, it feels good. Maybe try and have a little joy in your day while you are at it, smile a little. Life is good!

lightwav

09-29-2004, 01:08 AM

AND to be honest.. Forgive me but with all the real problems in the world today, I could give a rats BUTT if you can or can't where a particular Tshirt at a Bush or Kerry event.

Big deal!

kurtmasur

09-29-2004, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by lightwav@Sep 29 2004, 02:08 AM
AND to be honest.. Forgive me but with all the real problems in the world today, I could give a rats BUTT if you can or can't where a particular Tshirt at a Bush or Kerry event.

Big deal!
You wouldn't give a rats, but the Secret Service definitely would (and Bush).

In response to your earlier post, I would like to make it clear that I am criticizing the US government, not the USA. We the people are the USA, and the US government is something else, formed by the elite powerful families. I'll be honest with you, I would probably do everything within my power to avoid fighting for my country (ahem, for the US government) in a war. I would never join the military. But hey, I am not the only one! Me and the sons and daughters of the US Congress have this in common. Did you know that out of the 535 members of Congress (Senators included), only ONE member has a son serving in Iraq! Only ONE!!! I won't even say anything about Bush's daughters.

Thanks for showing me the door out of the country. I am sorry to say that I am already a step ahead of you, as I've recently been living abroad as an expat. After spending so much time abroad in so many places, I can only say that I am not any safer inside the US than I am outside it. I still read mainstream news from the US and find it sad to read the picture painted of the rest of the world. Reason why I caution my fellow Eagle Passans to treat the US mainstream media with a healthy dose of skepticism.

kurtmasur

09-29-2004, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by lightwav@Sep 29 2004, 02:05 AM
Yes kurtmasur, I can see how you being such an American and true Patriot (cough cough) would be so terribly shaken by our consitution being violated.

...In fact all you do is spit in the face of America over and over with your negative comments about our country, our efforts abroad, our leader and so on.

The above way of thinking is what has evolved out of the "terrorism" age. Ever since 9/11 a new form of McCarthyism has sprung out. Apprantly, we are not welcome to critisize the President, nor the US government's actions (the Iraq war in particular) or else we are automatically labeled as "anti-American" and "un-patriotic". That last label really makes me laugh. It is precisely because I care about this country that I critisize its negative attributes.

If you want me to restrain myself from criticizing the Bush Administration along with its pitiful actions, then we might as well make this country officially a communist state. Because in such regimes, it is prohibited, in any way, shape or form, for anybody to come up and speak against the "Dear leader" (as in North Korea), or el Comandante (as in Cuba). Is that what you want, Lightwav?

Evie

10-13-2004, 06:07 PM

~~~QUESTION: HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR GEORGE W. BUSH GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

My Fellow Americans:
As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed. Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.

This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning
Before me, I have two lists One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there.
The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the worlds nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.
Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.
The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.
Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France.
In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home.
On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, or maybe China.
To Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Yo, boys. Work out a peace deal now. Just note that Camp David is closed. Maybe all of you can go to Russia for negotiations. They have some great palaces there. Big tables, too.

I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.
I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers, and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.
A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not f**king us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security.
So start doing something with your oil.
Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty --- starting now.
We are tired of the one-way highway.
It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens.
Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them be saying, "darn tootin."
Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America. It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America.

To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget.
To the nations on List 2, a final thought. Drop dead.
God bless America. And God bless List 1.
Thank you and good night.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

lightwav

10-13-2004, 08:27 PM

I have seen this before and it's right on!

:P

Personally I would love to see this speech! Wasssuuuuppppp!

memories

10-13-2004, 09:05 PM

I'm voting for Bush. I trust Bush's decisions. My family may be voting for Bush too, but I am my own person and can make my own decisions. I choose Bush. I just don't think Kerry would be good man to have in office.

If you haven't already seen it, check out jibjab.com, that is some funny stuff.

mena

10-13-2004, 09:40 PM

Don't forget to vote Nov. 2nd. or do the early voting.

BlueCollar

10-14-2004, 10:11 AM

Right on! How long will we have to wait and how much will we have to endure before we realize that we need to take care of the homeland and its citizens first and then worry bout everybody else.

lightwav

10-14-2004, 10:21 AM

Well, it will never happen because this would take a little common sense which most politicians (on either side of the isle) LACK!

kurtmasur

10-15-2004, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by BlueCollar@Oct 14 2004, 11:11 AM
Right on! How long will we have to wait and how much will we have to endure before we realize that we need to take care of the homeland and its citizens first and then worry bout everybody else.
It's about time that we elect people who intend to put the USA first and not other nations. I'll tell you, countries like France, Germany, Russia, Canada, Mexico, etc. are not the ones that the government should cut off. They are our friends, not our enemies.

It's Israel that our government puts ahead of us. We should cut all ties and aid with the Israeli government. Just look at how we support them in absolutely EVERYTHING. Our government goes out of its way for them. And what does our government get in return from Israel?! NOTHING.

For example, be honest with yourselves and think whether Israel assisted us with military resources for the Iraq war. They contributed ZIP! And what's really fishy is that our government never pressured/bullied (heck it didn't even try politely asking) into sending troops the same way it tried with the European countries.

It's time we pull out of Iraq NOW. The "mission" is already completed there. And lets cut diplomatic relations with Israel!

mena

10-20-2004, 08:21 PM

E-mail, New York Post | 10.17.04 | jean in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, Mia T, VINCENT MORRIS and DEBORAH ORIN

Posted on 10/17/2004 12:06:38 AM PDT by Mia T

Are You Confused Yet????

an E-mail from jean in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont

"I'm trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my head so I'll know how to vote come November. Right now, we have one guy saying one thing. Then the other guy says something else. Who to believe. Lemme see; have I got this straight?

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists-
good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - ! good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam turned over for trial - bad...

Aahh, it's so confusing!

Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average tax burden on Americans, and then calculates the "Tax Freedom Day". This is the day after which the money you earn goes to you, not the government. This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's the earliest it has been since 1967. It's latest day ever was May 2nd, which occurred in 2000. Notice anything special about those dates?

Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave no explanation and provided no data for this claim.

Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are wealthy men. Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas. Kerry owns 4 mansions, all worth several million dollars.(His ski resort home in Idaho is an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. Not your average A-frame).

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year; Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own."
**************
jean in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont

kurtmasur

10-21-2004, 02:56 AM

Ok, ok, while some of your comparisons seem to be valid, Mena, there are a few that need some footnoting.

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...but how many American lives were lost? At least Clinton didn't keep our forces there more than necessary.

Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad... again how many American lives have been lost (oh and the figure is climbing day by day to this day)? It's been over a year since the regime change happened. Why the hell is Bush keeping our troops there? To restore freedom and democracy in Iraq? Do you honestly think the US government really cares about the Iraqis?
------------------------------------

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good... I would say bad.
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad. Terrorist camps? Oh, yeah, "terrorist" camps. You probably mean Bush bombs innocent Iraqi lives. More importantly, Bush and his junta attacked the USA on 9/11. (There is already a lawsuit pending in a Northern California court, brought on by Stanley Hilton, Bob Dole's former Senior Advisor. He personally knows Bush, Rice, Rumsfeld, etc. and has information on how 9/11 was authorized by Bush himself.)

I think this last Bush accomplishment would be better paired with....

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...No! Not good! But, let's also consider that this involves lies involving a personal romantic affair and a stained blue dress. American lives lost because of Clinton's "felonies"-- zip (no pun intended). At least Clinton never took us into a war based on lies, which is still taking a toll on American lives.
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...Would have been good if it had meant that our soldiers would return home as promised to them.

-----------------------------
No mass graves found in Serbia - good...But Bush helped create mass graves in both Iraq and at home with so many lost American lives.
No WMD found Iraq - bad... It only exposes Bush's lies.
------------------
Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...Well Bin Laden and the CIA go back to the Reagan years. They work together to this date. It's why the US government doesn't "catch" him. And if they "do", it would all be staged. (I wouldn't be surprised if Bush does this sometime in the next few weeks before the election just to win). If Bin Laden weren't affiliated with the US govt, then he would have already been caught. Think about it, how could some guy outsmart a government with cutting edge technology? If we can detect illegal aliens at night, why not some guy like Bin Laden?

World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad... HORRIBLE, especially because Bush himself authorized the attacks to gain greedy political control of our country based on fear. Yeah, all Bush has to do now is scare the hell out of us so that we can do as he wishes, like giving him approval to start the Iraq war because "Iraq could wipe us out with their 'weapons of mass destruction'" The government didn't waste its time in approving the Patriot Act. And now the population continues to think that way. A lot of people are saying, "if we don't reelect Bush, there will be horrible attacks under Kerry" (they forget that it was precisely under Bush that we got attacked on 9/11). Actually, that's how Bush wants to be elected: Vote for me, or else something horrible will happen. You should check out last week's edition of The Onion, "Cheney Vows to Attack US if Kerry Elected". It's meant to be funny, but it actually isn't, because it describes the sad reality of the Bush, I mean, Cheney Administration. http://www.theonion.com/index.php?issue=4041

----------------------------

Oh, I could go on forever. Am I confused as you are? Nah. It's all clear to me that the government (well, all governments really) are controlled by the few elite families with a greed of controlling us the masses. They naturally have to disguise their actions with flip-flops and lies, and they only end up confusing the average person in the population.

P.S. The main article in this week's Onion is also funny, U.S. Finishes A 'Strong
Second' In Iraq War. http://www.theonion.com

mena

10-21-2004, 07:38 AM

Kerrys Paid Just 12% in Federal Income Taxes in 2003
Massachusetts Senator paid skimpy tax bill despite calls for rich to "pay their share"

WASHINGTON, D.C. - John Kerry has repeatedly called for increasing taxes on the "wealthy" so the affluent "pay their fair share" for the "common good." Ironically, John and Theresa Heinz Kerry, who comprise one the richest families in the world, pay relatively little income tax.

Last year, John Kerry and his wife paid just 12% of their combined income in income taxes, despite their assertion that the rich should contribute increased amounts to government coffers. In contrast, President and Mrs. Bush, who had a substantially lower income than the Kerry's, paid over 28% in taxes.

"John Kerry wants other Americans to pay higher taxes while he and his wife manage to pay a rate lower than most of the middle class," said ATR President Grover Norquist. "Apparently, the Kerrys think everyone else should pay higher taxes but them."

In addition to finding loopholes and write-offs to decrease his taxes, John Kerry has declined to pay a small, voluntary tax in his home state. The Massachusetts state income tax code contains a provision allowing payers to contribute an extra .6% of their income to benefit the commonwealth. Kerry has consistently failed to pay the extra money, which would have amounted to $687 dollars last year.

"John Kerry thinks other hardworking Americans should pay more taxes while he and his billionaire wife pay as little as possible," continued Norquist. "The hypocrisy John Kerry shows on his own tax return is not indicative of the character and judgment America needs in our President."

kurtmasur

10-22-2004, 07:59 AM

Well, this is a result of Bush's initiatives in approving tax cuts for the rich. Those who have the highest incomes benefit. Ultimately, Kerry has only Bush to thank for this. Oh, I wish I had those same tax cuts too! :(

da_jackal

10-22-2004, 08:29 AM

I want a tax cut too. But i am not rich. :(

lightwav

10-22-2004, 10:38 AM

Let me ask you all a simple question...

Let's say you make $1000 a week today and for arguments sake you pay 15% in taxes.

Then you start making better money because you worked your *** off for years trying to start a business or you got a better paying job.

Is it now fair to penalize you for making more money?

You realize the current tax system discourages people from trying to do better for themselves don't you?

Do you think because someone makes more they should pay a higher percentage, say 30% of their income to the IRS?

I am not asking if they should pay more, but should they pay a higher percentage for every dollar they make?

Makes no sense to me why some people think that just because someone does well they should share more of the tax burden percentage wise.

In this country our economy would be much better if people had the incentive to start businesses without so many penalties from the goverment.

Don't you folks realize that most jobs come from small businesses and NOT from large companies. Mom and pop type companies with 20 or less employees! These are the very people that provide the very jobs that so many are screaming about not having enough of. How can there be jobs if the businesses that provide them are slapped in the face over and over by the goverment especially in a rough economy?

Saying you want to beat down the small business person AND you want more jobs is just like saying I want more milk out of this cow so let me kill it and see how well that works out! Don't you see? It's so simple!

Sadly, I don't think many see this because they just buy the whole package the democrats have thrown at them without really thinking about the logic or lack of behind it.

The key here folks is THINK! Don't just take whatever the democrats spin and run with it, think about it deeply and see if it makes sense.

Stop voting for who the rest of your family or friends do in your area, start thinking for yourself! Fact is, it's tough to vote anything democrat in a place like EP because you all think that's what you should do. You family and friends have all told you that the republicans are for the rich and the democrats are for the poor. There is more too it than that, thinking that way is just simpled minded.. Think for yourself people, PLEASE! It's really OK to do something that may be a little different amongst your friends and neighbors. :ph34r:

lightwav

10-22-2004, 10:39 AM

>>
Let me ask you all a simple question...
>>

OK after reading my post I guess starting it with this comment is kinda funny..

mena

10-22-2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by kurtmasur@Oct 22 2004, 08:59 AM
Well, this is a result of Bush's initiatives in approving tax cuts for the rich. Those who have the highest incomes benefit. Ultimately, Kerry has only Bush to thank for this. Oh, I wish I had those same tax cuts too! :(
Right, but we are talking about the same guy "Kerry" who wants to raise taxes for everyone yet, he doesn't pay his own share. Of course, he wants to raise taxes because he doesn't pay or will pay his share.

It's funny how you still blame Bush, when Bush paid alot more money yet, made alot less. :angry:

PHEDRE

10-22-2004, 11:32 PM

nevermind i agree with lightwav

PHEDRE

10-23-2004, 01:45 AM

ok I usually try to stay out of politics but i have to say this, My family was raised to belive that you don't deserve anything you don't earn, and anything you do is a reflection on yourself so do it well. Even through the great depression my family never accepted one cent form the Government. The biggest shock of my life is when i went to college and got a real job ( id just had private jobs in the past, nursery worker, piano teacher, that kind of stuff) It was almost impossible for me to do my job because if i wanted it done right i had to do just about everybody elses job. LOTS of people were lazy and hardly any took pride in what they did. whats more i heard people BOAST that they were only waiting for a certain time period to go by so they could try and get themselves fired and collect unemployment. they claimed they could stretch that out for a long time and not have to work! one told me that the reason she didn't work hard was that since they were paying her minimum wage thats the kind of work her employer would receive. Call me crazy but i just don't think anyone will get a raise by doing crappy work. Besides if you think you deserve more go someplace else, demand a higher wages and explain why you deserve them. or stay where you are, prove it and ask for them. don't accept a job, be lazy and not do and feel you employer is obligated to pay you. well I didn't care to get to know these people very well so i don't know if they vote or not but i do know what they would think of lightwav's post. they wouldn't care because they don't seek to better their situation. Well the fact is nobody deserves to be paid for work thats poorly done and nobody deserves 30% of someone elses hard earned wages because they don't WANT to work. If you wonder why employers dont just fire someone who doesn't do the job right, especially mom and pop type places, its because their hands are already tied. You fire someone and they file unemployment, if the person you fire is able to convince whoever at the workforce commission that there were no grounds, then Some of that unemployment comes form their pockets too! i may not have much right now but i will (God willing) and ill dont want anybody mooching off of me!...let me point something out here. A lot of democratic leaders are wealthy, don't be naive enough to think they don't know this. OR that they actually believe in what they say. notice what lightwav said. They pit people against the "rich" but the rules don't apply to them. What is it THEY are after? and at what cost to you and me? They know that hand outs will get them votes....and it has worked pretty well, but remember, nothing is for free. When you empower people with those "principals" you tie your own hands. Not only yours but the hands of your children because although you may not have ambitions, they might.

kurtmasur

10-25-2004, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by lightwav@Oct 22 2004, 11:38 AM
Let me ask you all a simple question...

Let's say you make $1000 a week today and for arguments sake you pay 15% in taxes.

Then you start making better money because you worked your *** off for years trying to start a business or you got a better paying job.

Is it now fair to penalize you for making more money?

You realize the current tax system discourages people from trying to do better for themselves don't you?

Do you think because someone makes more they should pay a higher percentage, say 30% of their income to the IRS?

Ok, let me ask a parallel question: Do you think because someone makes LESS, they should pay a higher percentage, say 30% of their income to the IRS?

The way I see it, Republicans want to penalize the working class (i.e. non-rich) just for having less money. Naturally, as they've always done, they like to reward those folks with six-digit figures.

Lightwav, I assume you earn at least $100,000/year. Kudos to you, man.

The thing is, it's not a bad thing at all to make your fortune through your own hard work. If you've become rich this way, then you get props. Congratulations, and go vacation at the Bahamas. You yourself have earned your reward.

Now, I find it pointless (and purposeless) for the government trying to reward people who already have their reward in life (ie. $$$).

kurtmasur

10-25-2004, 05:30 AM

Enjoy:

http://www.andyfoulds.co.uk/amusement/bushv2.htm

Be sure to click on "Blair" also.

PHEDRE

10-25-2004, 05:54 AM

*sigh* kurtmasur, theres no question of "non-rich" people paying 30% so you question is pointless. and the republicans are not trying to penalize anyone for having less money. thats just silly.

"now, I find it pointless (and purposeless) for the government trying to reward people who already have their reward in life"

what reward in life are you talking about?

kurtmasur

10-25-2004, 06:28 AM

If I mentioned "30% tax rate for the poor", it was used to illustrate my point. I tried forming my parallel question while preserving lightwav's original question as much as possible.
I thought this would be obvious, but I was wrong.

If you re-read my post, you should know what "reward in life" I am talking about. This too should be clear from reading my post.

PHEDRE

10-25-2004, 06:31 AM

well 30% is a real figure, and if your talking about rewards that are self made, nobody has the right to take them away or try to "balance things out". this isnt a comunistic country yet you know. :) *shrug*

kurtmasur

10-25-2004, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by PHEDRE@Oct 25 2004, 07:31 AM
well 30% is a real figure, and if your talking about rewards that are self made, nobody has the right to take them away or try to "balance things out". this isnt a comunistic country yet you know. :) *shrug*
Of course not. I'll say it again, if you've earned your own $$$ through hard work, then well done! The $$$ that you've earned is your reward. Enjoy it, but stop using the government to further reward you (through lower tax rates) at an unfair advantage over those with less $. If you get a tax break, then what's wrong with the rest of us with little $ to get a tax break too? Basically, what is wrong with being fair?

By the way, congratulations to you too for earning well above $100,000. Well done, man! :)

Concerning communism, well, the USA is a country with many freedoms, but they are slowly vanishing. Example, Patriot Act--need I say enough? I hope you are fully aware and informed as to what it consists of. Don't be fooled, I get personal accusations from certain people in this message board that I am "un-patriotic and anti-American" just because I criticize the US government and Bush Administration. It's like the times of McCarthy and the Red Scare. Lest I remind you, McCarthyism is when someone is accused publicly of being disloyal to the USA based on insufficient evidence.

I am Anti-Bush, anti-lie, and PRO-America. May the neo-cons and their neo-conservative agenda be driven out of the White House.

PHEDRE

10-25-2004, 07:24 AM

Lol first of all babe, I'm a woman not a man and i don't make over 100,000 a year yet but i can assure you my goals are much higher than that. I'm not accusing you of being anti American but what your saying just doesn't make sense to me. The government wouldn't be further rewarding anyone if the money they have earned is made though hard work. but if you want to look at it that way why does the government help people from lower income families help with college or housing or food or nursery care or medicine is that rewarding them for being poor?

tax cuts help new business succeed which provides more jobs and more business mean more overall taxes. i don't see what the problem is. besides i head on the news last night that almost everybody will get a tax increase not just the "rich". according to Kerrys plan so i wouldn't count on getting a tax cut. most people get a tax rebate anyway or end up not owing. everyone complains about there not being enough jobs and how big corporations control everything but how can you expect things to change if you don't support issues that will help change it! :lol:

mena

10-25-2004, 08:27 AM

kurtmasur

10-26-2004, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by PHEDRE@Oct 25 2004, 08:24 AM
Lol first of all babe, I'm a woman not a man and i don't make over 100,000 a year yet but i can assure you my goals are much higher than that. I'm not accusing you of being anti American but what your saying just doesn't make sense to me. The government wouldn't be further rewarding anyone if the money they have earned is made though hard work. but if you want to look at it that way why does the government help people from lower income families help with college or housing or food or nursery care or medicine is that rewarding them for being poor?

tax cuts help new business succeed which provides more jobs and more business mean more overall taxes. i don't see what the problem is. besides i head on the news last night that almost everybody will get a tax increase not just the "rich". according to Kerrys plan so i wouldn't count on getting a tax cut. most people get a tax rebate anyway or end up not owing. everyone complains about there not being enough jobs and how big corporations control everything but how can you expect things to change if you don't support issues that will help change it! :lol:
<<but if you want to look at it that way why does the government help people from lower income families help with college or housing or food or nursery care or medicine is that rewarding them for being poor?>>

Yes, but the Republican party dedicates itself into precisely cutting down on such social services to the people. Ultimately the Republican policy is anti-low income people. Let's not fool ourselves.

<<tax cuts help new business succeed which provides more jobs and more business mean more overall taxes>>

Ultimately a business' success depends on us, the consumers. If it doesn't get enough sales/business, then not even a 0% tax would help it. And the only way we the consumers can have more money is if we actually have the available monetary resources to buy things in the shops. Yes, those of you wealthy Eagle Passans complain that you get taxed out of your hard-earned fortunes so that other people can get food stamps. With social services like WIC, Lone Star, low-income people have extra cash available to contribute to the businesses they shop at. In the end of the day, the money will return back to you, the business owner. However due to Republican efforts to cut down on social services, low-income families will struggle to make ends meet, and will literally live paycheck to paycheck just to pay the bills. It's a vicious cycle where you can't even save enough to build your fortune. No money for anything else. Basically, no matter how hard you work, you will always remain poor :(

And as for there being no jobs and corporations controlling everything, well, it's the truth. In case you don't know, there a lot of jobs being lost day by day. Already American Airlines recently announced that it will layoff at least 1100 workers. And if it isn't layoffs it's jobs being sent abroad, like to India. The corporations have to do what they can in their best interests, so they do have a direct control on the lives of us stakeholders that depend on them. I won't say anything about those laid-off employees.

There's no point in trying to cover the sun with a finger. Republican policies are anti-low income people, and pro-high income people and you all know it.

P.S. Congratulations, to you too, Mena, for earning WELL ABOVE the $100,000 mark. You are an examplary Eagle Passan. :)

mena

10-26-2004, 11:20 AM

Kurtmasur, little do you know what it means to work hard, sacrifice and suffer to get ahead in life.

If what you say about the Republican party is true well, Democratic policy is don't worry the people who work their a** off will pay your way of life because we are taking their money.

PHEDRE

10-26-2004, 11:25 AM

Yes, but the Republican party dedicates itself into precisely cutting down on such social services to the people. Ultimately the Republican policy is anti-low income people. Let's not fool ourselves."

"Yes," it is reward for being poor? well then damn the republicans!!! im with you babe, lets give them more rewards. I betcha we can attract many more poor people like that! lets make everyone poor as a matter of fact why not me!!! I'm with you 100% after all it DOES make sense! the more poor people there are the more businesses will get !! whats the point in making new jobs anyway. after all no matter how hard you work you will always remain poor! but its ok if im poor because ill get money from the government and then have extra cash to spend and not worry about making ends meet!! hah im so dumb. come on why didn't anyone clue me in before? and there i was thinking i was going in the right direction every time i got a promotion or a raise or made plans for the future.! some friends you are. Mena, Lightwav, shame on you for trying to deceive me with your backwards logic. forget you guys. im on MY way to easy street!

*wink* ;)

mena

10-26-2004, 11:29 AM

:o No!!! not that way. :o

PHEDRE

10-26-2004, 01:44 PM

kurtmasur

10-26-2004, 01:46 PM

Well, don't get your hopes up, you, PHEDRE. I am personally living the life of the poor, and am not getting any reward for it. At least not anymore. I am literally in this financial vicious cycle where I cannot really save substantially to move myself up the financial latter. The policies you believe in will not do me any good. I was actually better off under Clinton, than I am under Bush. But that doesn't mean Kerry's policies will be better necessarily for me. This election year we really don't have a choice in candidate. Both candidates seem willing to uphold the neo-conservative agenda as dictated by the folks of the New American Century.

kurtmasur

10-27-2004, 12:46 PM

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/LOW_WAGE_CONSERVATIVES.png

PHEDRE

11-03-2004, 07:51 AM

lol ok oK ok! I've been poor to but you know what babe, thats not the point. its cool though. we have a difference of opinion and definition our morals and values and thats going to cause us to disagree on.well..... just about anything! political or not ;) so no sweat, you stick to what you believe and ill stick to what i believe.. B) and good luck to you.

kurtmasur

11-03-2004, 10:08 AM

<<lol ok oK ok! I've been poor to but you know what babe, thats not the point. its cool though. we have a difference of opinion and definition our morals and values and thats going to cause us to disagree on.well..... just about anything! political or not so no sweat, you stick to what you believe and ill stick to what i believe.. and good luck to you. >>

Very well. Stick to your political principles, if they are what you believe in.

Indeed I am saddened by the election results. I would be very happy if the "official" vote counts for Bush reflect legitimately cast votes. But if Bush's lead is composed by other than legitimate votes, we should all be angry.

In all, I don't know who to thank....the voters? Or the Diebold electronic voting machines used in certain states?

Consider this, it was reported that in states with paper trails, the vote results match the exit polling numbers. In states with eletronic voting machines with no paper trails, the vote results do NOT match the exit polls, and Bush leads.

PHEDRE

11-03-2004, 06:43 PM

:blink: You know, they actually already found some machines that were used for cheating but you know what...they were not in favor of bush, he doesn't have "a brother to fix things up for him" in Ohio, and absentee ballots have historically been republican, and since many of those come from our military, i highly doubt that would help him. soo..you know :)

oh and by the way im not talking about Political principles. :mellow:

kurtmasur

11-04-2004, 02:33 AM

Actually, it's not just the military that is abroad. Worldwide, there are thousands and thousands of American civilians living abroad that sent in absentee ballots, myself included. Let me tell you, the vast majority of American expats did not support Bush in this election. It makes a difference living in the countries that "hate" America. Alienating our allies and fighting a war in Iraq for no substantial reason, just doesn't make sense. It's really the US Government (Bush in particular) that the world hates, not us, the people.

Yes, the elections are over, and a lot of you are saying "it's time to unite as Americans behind our Commander-in-Chief". But since I am not willing to support a guy that uses lies to make a war (a war which he planned way before 9/11), and uses terror to manipulate us, the population, I cannot, and will not ever support Bush (I mean, Cheney) while in office.
I urge my fellow Eagle Passans that support Bush blindly to realize what they have voted for. And for the record, this has nothing to do with being Repulican or Democrat. I am anti-Bush because of who he really is, and not because of his party.

kurtmasur

11-04-2004, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by PHEDRE@Nov 3 2004, 08:43 PM
:blink: You know, they actually already found some machines that were used for cheating but you know what...they were not in favor of bush, he doesn't have "a brother to fix things up for him" in Ohio, and absentee ballots have historically been republican, and since many of those come from our military, i highly doubt that would help him. soo..you know :)

oh and by the way im not talking about Political principles. :mellow:
Quite unethical, in my opinion...

Published on Thursday, August 28, 2003 by the Cleveland Plain Dealer
Voting Machine Controversy by Julie Carr Smyth

COLUMBUS - The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

The Aug. 14 letter from Walden O'Dell, chief executive of Diebold Inc. - who has become active in the re-election effort of President Bush - prompted Democrats this week to question the propriety of allowing O'Dell's company to calculate votes in the 2004 presidential election.

O'Dell attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors - known as Rangers and Pioneers - at the president's Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month. The next week, he penned invitations to a $1,000-a-plate fund-raiser to benefit the Ohio Republican Party's federal campaign fund - partially benefiting Bush - at his mansion in the Columbus suburb of Upper Arlington.

The letter went out the day before Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, also a Republican, was set to qualify Diebold as one of three firms eligible to sell upgraded electronic voting machines to Ohio counties in time for the 2004 election.

Blackwell's announcement is still in limbo because of a court challenge over the fairness of the selection process by a disqualified bidder, Sequoia Voting Systems.

In his invitation letter, O'Dell asked guests to consider donating or raising up to $10,000 each for the federal account that the state GOP will use to help Bush and other federal candidates - money that legislative Democratic leaders charged could come back to benefit Blackwell.

They urged Blackwell to remove Diebold from the field of voting-machine companies eligible to sell to Ohio counties.

This is the second such request in as many months. State Sen. Jeff Jacobson, a Dayton-area Republican, asked Blackwell in July to disqualify Diebold after security concerns arose over its equipment.

"Ordinary Ohioans may infer that Blackwell's office is looking past Diebold's security issues because its CEO is seeking $10,000 donations for Blackwell's party - donations that could be made with statewide elected officials right there in the same room," said Senate Democratic Leader Greg DiDonato.

Diebold spokeswoman Michelle Griggy said O'Dell - who was unavailable to comment personally - has held fund-raisers in his home for many causes, including the Columbus Zoo, Op era Columbus, Catholic Social Services and Ohio State University.

Ohio GOP spokesman Jason Mauk said the party approached O'Dell about hosting the event at his home, the historic Cotswold Manor, and not the other way around. Mauk said that under federal campaign finance rules, the party cannot use any money from its federal account for state- level candidates.

"To think that Diebold is somehow tainted because they have a couple folks on their board who support the president is just unfair," Mauk said.

Griggy said in an e-mail statement that Diebold could not comment on the political contributions of individual company employees.

Blackwell said Diebold is not the only company with political connections - noting that lobbyists for voting-machine makers read like a who's who of Columbus' powerful and politically connected.

"Let me put it to you this way: If there was one person uniquely involved in the political process, that might be troubling," he said. "But there's no one that hasn't used every legitimate avenue and bit of leverage that they could legally use to get their product looked at. Believe me, if there is a political lever to be pulled, all of them have pulled it."

Blackwell said he stands by the process used for selecting voting machine vendors as fair, thorough and impartial.

As of yesterday, however, that determination lay with Ohio Court of Claims Judge Fred Shoemaker.

He heard closing arguments yesterday over whether Sequoia was unfairly eliminated by Blackwell midway through the final phase of negotiations.

Shoemaker extended a temporary restraining order in the case for 14 days, but said he hopes to issue his opinion sooner than that.

PHEDRE

11-04-2004, 07:35 AM

hmm funny, i don't remember saying that it was all military sending in the ballots, but i do remember saying that they HAVE historically been republican and i realize that many come from people living abroad. and yes it certainly does make a difference living in the countries where people hate America but your wrong in one respect. i don't presume to know what its like in all other countries but i know that my experience is jealous hatred of the people not the government. thats just something they hide behind so they can justify themselves if they even bother that is. i know this because i used to live in a country like that. and i know it affected the Americans who live abroad in the same way it affected me, so i don't know where your coming from. oh and i thought you were living the life of the poor anyway. what are you doing overseas?

da_jackal

11-04-2004, 09:36 PM

If Bush moved jobs overseas for a pay that is a small fraction of what people get paid here you can go get work over there and live the life of the poor. Or you could also try to work here and live the life of the poor too.

kurtmasur

11-05-2004, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by PHEDRE@Nov 4 2004, 09:35 AM
hmm funny, i don't remember saying that it was all military sending in the ballots, but i do remember saying that they HAVE historically been republican and i realize that many come from people living abroad. and yes it certainly does make a difference living in the countries where people hate America but your wrong in one respect. i don't presume to know what its like in all other countries but i know that my experience is jealous hatred of the people not the government. thats just something they hide behind so they can justify themselves if they even bother that is. i know this because i used to live in a country like that. and i know it affected the Americans who live abroad in the same way it affected me, so i don't know where your coming from. oh and i thought you were living the life of the poor anyway. what are you doing overseas?

When you mentioned absentee ballots, you only mentioned military ballots. It's all in your quote.

Yes, I'm living overseas, and I AM living the life of the poor. Both wealthy people and poor people come overseas...the former are on vacation, and the latter are actually living and working here. Like everybody else I have to work to bring bread and butter to the table, that is, to survive.

I have many friends that are locals, and many friends that are American expats. There seems to be a unanimous anti-Bush sentiment that we all have in common. When I get to browse through US mainstream news media, it just makes me laugh at some of the things they feed to the US population about the "dangers" from traveling in foreign countries because of "terror" threats and "Anti-American" feelings against us Americans. If ya'll only knew that it's not as the US mainstream media paints it.

Yes, there are terrorists, but it's not who the mainstream media and the government point their finger to.